new injectors

For those of you not faint of heart, who believe the Volvo 480 should have more torque and horsepower, find all you need to know in here.

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Post by rpruen » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:24 pm

crispy-d wrote:I've just read that the 804 injectors can be used on the Stage 1 Rich mod, just wondered if the MAF can be altered easily (i.e. by myself), or if we need you to do it (Rich)!
thanks
Maf alteration £20, mostly for the fiddle factor of opening the poxy thing.

Yes it's fairly easy to do, thing is you need some info get started.... Sadly I have agreed not to make that public.

If anyone can dig anything up off the net that has enough detail on the workings of the MAF, that is freely available, then I'll happily use that info to tell you how to do it. Frankly I don't have the time to mess with this stuff, but for the moment I'm stuck with it.

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Post by guitarcarfanatic » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:27 pm

Oh and all I can say to this....
rpruen wrote:My plan is to get to about 380 - 400 bhp to start with
is OMG!!!!!!!!!


and...
rpruen wrote: 45 psi boost
OMFG!


* wanders off to drool and ponder such power... *
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Re: new injectors

Post by rpruen » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:28 pm

yknot wrote: the pressure regulator is 2,5 bar for the fiat coupe 2.0 16v with these injectors
So that flow is at 2.5 bar? Or is the quoted flow at 3 bar?

Not that it's that important, the injectors will work. If the quoted flow is at 2.5 bar then you could drop the fuel pressure a bit. that's all.

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Post by rpruen » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:45 pm

guitarcarfanatic wrote:
rpruen wrote: 45 psi boost
OMFG!
* wanders off to drool and ponder such power... *
It's going to take a bit of time / work to get to that stage. The clutch and gearbox are still a limit at the moment. That pressure will need both the supercharger and turbo at the same time.

Maybe to start with wasn't the best choice of words :)

To start with I need to get the thing into a drivable state, so I can run the engine in. That at least isn't far away now.

Richard
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Post by haz@nocturnal_development » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:15 pm

sorry bout ma lack of part numbers but i've tried that many i keep forgettin. think they were 740 injectors, light green ones i think. yeah the output transistor needed replacin.

my bypass pipe aint t-ed, i have a Y pipe on the inlet with 2 afm's, one with a restritor in it ;) surely you want the mix to get richer at higher flow as thats when its on boost, besides the afm only reads from 0-5 volts and you forget that i only worry bout 'on boost' settings.

i tested the fuel pressure with a gauge t-ed into the fuel feed line, pre rail and at idle. i do have a few rails but they are all from the other volvo turbo engines i have, hopefully tho your right cos more pressue would help atm, i'll check the other regulators i have.

are you hopin for 380bhp+ on the std cam?? are you hopin to run 45psi on a t25?? do you not think the charge temps will get silly high or is it just a dynoqueen that your buildin ??

you also mention that you've ran many cars at 28psi+, how many cars are still like this and how long have they been goin at this setting? just wonderin how you get round the det issue that i, and a few others, have at 25psi.

the saab injectors are poor at idle but have been great so far, they are gettin binned for some 440cc ones tho, and i thought they may be too big, injector info never seems to be as acurate as testin them.

also rich, i'm interested in the difference between yours and overboosts timin ecu mod, and also wondered if the fuel ecu mod is more than a change of resistors.

haz :)
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Post by crispy-d » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:59 pm

Hi, when last looked, the injectors seemed like a bit of a pain to replace, so if I'm going to do it, then I intend on doing it when I'm next home and getting the car fixed, seeing as it will all be in pieces anyway. What I wondered was can I drive the car from Ipswich back to Bristol with the 804 injectors safely without modifying the MAF? Or would it be neccessary to post my MAF (and of course a couple of notes) to you (Rich) to get it modified before the engine can run? That is if you have any time at all to do the work of course!!

If not, then at least I'll have the cylinder head and turbo done. I can always do the injectors later if need be.

Oh - btw - I believe Rich has a rather large T3 wedged somewhere behind his engine, so with the added help of the supercharger, I'm sure high boost would be managable (seeing as there are TWO intercoolers as well :wink: ) Hope it's all going well by the way, Richard!
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Post by rpruen » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:29 pm

haz@nocturnal_development wrote:sorry bout ma lack of part numbers but i've tried that many i keep forgettin. think they were 740 injectors, light green ones i think. yeah the output transistor needed replacin.
Hm... I have not seen that happen before... Maybe the light green injectors are 2.2 ohm ones. I have also lost track of part numbers. But 804 injectors from a 940T / or 760 are known to work ok.
haz@nocturnal_development wrote: my bypass pipe aint t-ed, i have a Y pipe on the inlet with 2 afm's, one with a restritor in it ;) surely you want the mix to get richer at higher flow as thats when its on boost, besides the afm only reads from 0-5 volts and you forget that i only worry bout 'on boost' settings.
Y pipes are going to be better. I'm still not sure what is going to happen though I haven't tested that sort of setup.

The AFM reads 0-5 volts, but what I do changes the amount of air needed to output the full scale. It's adjustable to match the injectors, so no changes to the fuel ecu are needed at all. The fuel ECU will deal with making the mixture richer as the flow goes up, since it does this as standard. The EZK can also chip in and tell the ECU to add more fuel as well.
haz@nocturnal_development wrote: i tested the fuel pressure with a gauge t-ed into the fuel feed line, pre rail and at idle. i do have a few rails but they are all from the other volvo turbo engines i have, hopefully tho your right cos more pressue would help atm, i'll check the other regulators i have.
If the vaccum pipe to the regulator from the manifold was disconnected, then the pressure should be 3.5 bar. At idle with the regulator connected to vaccum, the pressure will be 2.5 to 3 bar depending on what the actual manifold vaccum is. I have seen 480 turbo engines with ES regulators fitted before, there is no easy way to tell them apart except the part number.
haz@nocturnal_development wrote: are you hopin for 380bhp+ on the std cam?? are you hopin to run 45psi on a t25?? do you not think the charge temps will get silly high or is it just a dynoqueen that your buildin ??
It's not the standard cam. I don't have much in the way of details, but it's a regrind of some sort. It is higher lift (that is easy to measure, at least) the rest who knows. Though it gave 200 bhp on the dyno, where the standard cam with the same settings gave 170. Torque peak was a little higher up the rpm range, and that's where the extra power comes from.

The turbo is a T3 with a compressor built for high pressure / low flow. Plus I have the supercharger as well. It's possible to have the turbo blow into the supercharger at say 35 psi, the superchrger would then raise the boost by another 14 psi to get to 45 psi without generating too much heat. Plus I have interstage cooling between the turbo and supecharger.

The whole idea of having the supercharger and turbo was also to make the car a pleasure to drive on the road, since the turbo won't do much of anything untill 4k rpm on it's own. With the supercharger adding to the exhaust gas flow, it should be starting at 2k rpm instead.
haz@nocturnal_development wrote: you also mention that you've ran many cars at 28psi+, how many cars are still like this and how long have they been goin at this setting? just wonderin how you get round the det issue that i, and a few others, have at 25psi.
What sort of MAP sensor are you using? What has been done to the timing map? As far as I remember you have disabled most of the ECU features so it falls back to the full load map, and ignores most sensors, so you should be able to tweak it to work. If you aren't interested in part throttle response, then cutting the wire that feeds the load signal from the fuel ECU to the EZK will retard the timing further.

Without having any VE figures for the cam you are using, then I can't start to guess at what sort of peak pressure there is in the cylinder. Without knowing that it's pure guesswork unfortunatly. I ran into thermal overloading of the pistons before det set in.

The advantage of the combustion chamber in piston is that the turbulance created gives a fast burn, that reduces the det problems. But it's also a problem because much more heat goes into the piston. Unlike the head the piston isn't water cooled. I'm fairly sure that the timing could be adjusted to sort out your det problems, but meltdown of the edge of the piston won't be far off.
haz@nocturnal_development wrote: the saab injectors are poor at idle but have been great so far, they are gettin binned for some 440cc ones tho, and i thought they may be too big, injector info never seems to be as acurate as testin them.
I agree injectors seem to be quirky to say the least. I guess that is why there are so many different spray paterns. Some work better than others in a particular engine.
haz@nocturnal_development wrote: also rich, i'm interested in the difference between yours and overboosts timin ecu mod, and also wondered if the fuel ecu mod is more than a change of resistors.
The timing ECU mod keeps all the sensors, and for the 3 bar map sensor version, the overboost ignition cut too. I don't know what yours does exactly so I can't compare.

I have not needed to change the fuel ECU so far at all. Only the MAF, so far it has done everything that I have wanted. It surprised me that with my huge injectors it gives a stable AFR at idle in open loop. I was sort of expecting the idle to be worse than that.

Hope that is of some interest anyhow.

Richard
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Post by yknot » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:38 pm

one of my friends with r5gtt b18ft, ask me to put a question here:
-with a standard head(valves) and porting, can he achieve 350hp?... or it is necessary to make bigger mod to the head... or to the plenum size?
....he use now a sds ecu, with a t3 turbo(have plans for hybrid t3/4 ,rollerbearigs), 4 coils, 450cc injectors, omp clutch.... safe 230hp on dyno
any help is welcome
thank you,
Florian.
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Post by rpruen » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:42 pm

crispy-d wrote:If not, then at least I'll have the cylinder head and turbo done. I can always do the injectors later if need be.
You could drive with it like that, but it will use massive amounts of fuel. You may also need to clean the sparkplugs a few times on the way, as everything will soot up. I can do the MAF for you, and you will need a multimeter to set it up. I'll give you instructions for settng up, it's a bit time consuming, but not too hard.
crispy-d wrote: Oh - btw - I believe Rich has a rather large T3 wedged somewhere behind his engine, so with the added help of the supercharger, I'm sure high boost would be managable (seeing as there are TWO intercoolers as well :wink: ) Hope it's all going well by the way, Richard!
Yes there is a T3 there, hencethe reason for moving the engine about. The engine has run, and there is just a small tensioner pully to make, and some pipework to fit before it's drivable. So yep it's going fairly well at the moment.

Hopefully will be ready for the road soon-ish.

Richard
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Post by rpruen » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:50 pm

yknot wrote: -with a standard head(valves) and porting, can he achieve 350hp?... or it is necessary to make bigger mod to the head... or to the plenum size?
....he use now a sds ecu, with a t3 turbo(have plans for hybrid t3/4 ,rollerbearigs), 4 coils, 450cc injectors, omp clutch.... safe 230hp on dyno
any help is welcome
thank you,
Florian.
I doubt it. The pistons will melt before that power. With some extra oil cooling maybe 280 bhp. I theory it is possible, but the melting point of the pistons will get in the way.

If what I have works then I may have a solution. As yet it's not tested with high boost. Basicaly what I have is reduced compression ratio, ceramic coated pistons, and head. It should work, but it's not proven yet.

Richard
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Post by yknot » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:16 am

rpruen wrote:
yknot wrote: -with a standard head(valves) and porting, can he achieve 350hp?... or it is necessary to make bigger mod to the head... or to the plenum size?
....he use now a sds ecu, with a t3 turbo(have plans for hybrid t3/4 ,rollerbearigs), 4 coils, 450cc injectors, omp clutch.... safe 230hp on dyno
any help is welcome
thank you,
Florian.
I doubt it. The pistons will melt before that power. With some extra oil cooling maybe 280 bhp. I theory it is possible, but the melting point of the pistons will get in the way.

If what I have works then I may have a solution. As yet it's not tested with high boost. Basicaly what I have is reduced compression ratio, ceramic coated pistons, and head. It should work, but it's not proven yet.

Richard
he want to change pistons with custom forged ones also, to achieve 350hp..
the question is : the standard head is good enough?
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Post by Ettore Bugatti » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:37 pm

If you're pulling the engine apart. I would certainly spend some money on th cylinder hear rebuild and modification.

High boost isn't everyting, I guess :lol:

Some intresting info on MAF's
http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/el ... Blues.html
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Post by TommiS » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:23 pm

Very very intresting discussion here but i would like to ask about the injectors...

Is it possible to measure the injectors resistance ? And is there any way to test and maybe clean them ?

I'am asking this because i made some shopping for the future ;)

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From left...Garrett T03 > Standard Garrett T02 and Bosch "804" injectors...

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Post by yknot » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:36 pm

TommiS wrote:Very very intresting discussion here but i would like to ask about the injectors...

Is it possible to measure the injectors resistance ? And is there any way to test and maybe clean them ?
yes, measure with an multimeter, and clean at a local garage with injector clean system.
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Post by tobi480turbo » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:18 pm

Hi,

Yes interesting thread so far :)

Does anybody know where to get a performace camshaft ?! or anybody who is capable of regrinding the original one ? to get a higher lift aso.

@ Rich

Do you have the possibility to get the exact data of the cam you´re using at the moment ? to probably have some facts with which I can go to a shop to get a standart one regrinded like the one you are using ?

Thx!

Cheers

Tobi
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Post by terrastudios » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:09 am

rpruen wrote:
terrastudios wrote: I'm intriged Rich how your planning on doing this! I guess youll run the wideband output voltage into a PIC ATOD, sample this so you know the present A/F ratio, you'd also need to know the current vacuum/boost and RPM on the PIC and then have a lookup table on the PIC which says what A/F ratio is required at this engine loading/rev range. You can then compare it to your sampled wideband output and then if it needs adjusting you'll alter the relevant VE value on the eprom in real time?

That would be a pretty slick setup, although if it is like the above, i wonder... why not ditch the fuel ECU and get the PIC to do all the fuel stuff itself ;)

Matt.
The idea is to do just about what you say. But the fuel system is actualy measuring the mass of air. There are no VE tables in the ECU to modify, and also it reads the maps into ram on startup, so modifying the eprom on the fly won't help. I would also not use this to set the mixture for the engine, the fuel ECU is more than capable of that.

Getting the load signal(s) is easy, since I have an external MAP sensor, and the fuel ECU outputs a load signal to the EZK (based on airflow). The airflow one may be a bit tricky since, it will change when the MAF signal is modified.

The idea is to offset the MAF voltage using an op-amp, that way you only need to output a simple DC voltage. The mixture would be in the right sort of area anyway, so it's just a trim using the WB O2 sensor. So a control loop operating against a target AFR for speed/load should do it.

As far as replacing the fuel ECU completely. So far I haven't found the need to do that, though it would be possible. This is more to do with adding a feature than changing anything drastic.

Richard
Sounds like a good plan Richard, I'm too used to N/A systems - forgot that it measures the amount of air and not vacuum!

So the plan is to sit inline with the MAF sensor, watch for when the A/F is running leaner than it should be and then alter the MAF voltage to the ECU to make it think its got less air in the intake than it has in real life, so it richens it up, and alternatively if its too rich on the A/F, you modify the MAF voltage so that it thinks its got more air in the intake than it has so it leans it out.

BTW for who asked - sorry to confuse, a PIC is a type of microprocessor which can be easily programmed in a variety of languages. ATOD is an analog to digital converter, which takes a voltage (for example 5v and converts it to a byte - dependant on the ATOD - so 5v may be 255, 0v would be 0 and 2.5v would be 127)

There is a company called Fastchip.nl which have modified the renault 19 16v ecu to interface a wideband o2 sensor. Though I understand that the turbo ecu side of things on 400s is a complete different setup than the other ones. Just wondering how easy it would be to modify the stock system so you don't need the PIC.

Matt.
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Post by rpruen » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:26 pm

tobi480turbo wrote:Hi,

Do you have the possibility to get the exact data of the cam you´re using at the moment ? to probably have some facts with which I can go to a shop to get a standart one regrinded like the one you are using ?
I don't have any way to measure the cam exactly enough. Comparing it to the normal cam, it looks like it has been reground to remove some of the metal at the back of the lobes. The valves have a little more overlap than normal when going from exhaust to intake strokes, and the valves stay open a bit longer than normal, so the duration is increased a little.

The lift is about 1 to 1.2mm more than standard.

I guess the only way to copy the cam is to send it off to the regrind company to use as a pattern? Unfortunatly I am using the cam at the moment, so that isn't so easy.

Sorry I can't help more.

Richard
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Post by rpruen » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:53 pm

terrastudios wrote:Sounds like a good plan Richard, I'm too used to N/A systems - forgot that it measures the amount of air and not vacuum!
Yep, it's a completly different system. Much easier for the ECU since it doesn't need to do much checking of maps to calculate the injector pulse.
terrastudios wrote: So the plan is to sit inline with the MAF sensor, watch for when the A/F is running leaner than it should be and then alter the MAF voltage to the ECU to make it think its got less air in the intake than it has in real life, so it richens it up, and alternatively if its too rich on the A/F, you modify the MAF voltage so that it thinks its got more air in the intake than it has so it leans it out.
I'd not put the PIC inline with the MAF, as it woul then have to track the MAF output, and output the same value plus an offset. I'd have the PIC output a signal to be added to the MAF output by an op-amp, a bit more messing about, but less delay is added to the signal.

Bosch use a wacky system to do the A/D conversion, and I proly can't tell you what it is, so I won't. It doesn't have an A/D converter, and that's the reason for the lack of resolution problems. It's a nice way to go about it if you have a slow CPU.

Your example above is upside down.. To make the mixture richer, increase the airflow sensor signal (more air = more fuel), and to make it leaner decrease the airflow signal (less air = less fuel).
terrastudios wrote: There is a company called Fastchip.nl which have modified the renault 19 16v ecu to interface a wideband o2 sensor. Though I understand that the turbo ecu side of things on 400s is a complete different setup than the other ones. Just wondering how easy it would be to modify the stock system so you don't need the PIC.
The standard system could be modified, but it's less easy than it should be, there isn't enough capacity for IO. or clock cycles for the CPU to keep up. A faster CPU could be used, but that would mess up all the timings. The stand alone system is going to be easier, by a mile. There is no reason for it not to be inside the ECU though, as there is plenty of room in there.

Richard
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Post by terrastudios » Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:48 pm

rpruen wrote:
terrastudios wrote:Sounds like a good plan Richard, I'm too used to N/A systems - forgot that it measures the amount of air and not vacuum!
Yep, it's a completly different system. Much easier for the ECU since it doesn't need to do much checking of maps to calculate the injector pulse.
terrastudios wrote: So the plan is to sit inline with the MAF sensor, watch for when the A/F is running leaner than it should be and then alter the MAF voltage to the ECU to make it think its got less air in the intake than it has in real life, so it richens it up, and alternatively if its too rich on the A/F, you modify the MAF voltage so that it thinks its got more air in the intake than it has so it leans it out.
I'd not put the PIC inline with the MAF, as it woul then have to track the MAF output, and output the same value plus an offset. I'd have the PIC output a signal to be added to the MAF output by an op-amp, a bit more messing about, but less delay is added to the signal.

Bosch use a wacky system to do the A/D conversion, and I proly can't tell you what it is, so I won't. It doesn't have an A/D converter, and that's the reason for the lack of resolution problems. It's a nice way to go about it if you have a slow CPU.

Your example above is upside down.. To make the mixture richer, increase the airflow sensor signal (more air = more fuel), and to make it leaner decrease the airflow signal (less air = less fuel).
terrastudios wrote: There is a company called Fastchip.nl which have modified the renault 19 16v ecu to interface a wideband o2 sensor. Though I understand that the turbo ecu side of things on 400s is a complete different setup than the other ones. Just wondering how easy it would be to modify the stock system so you don't need the PIC.
The standard system could be modified, but it's less easy than it should be, there isn't enough capacity for IO. or clock cycles for the CPU to keep up. A faster CPU could be used, but that would mess up all the timings. The stand alone system is going to be easier, by a mile. There is no reason for it not to be inside the ECU though, as there is plenty of room in there.

Richard
Opps @ upside down - my excuse is i wrote it at 1am :P

I wonder what other cars use the Bosch system thats fitted to the 400 turbos.
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Post by rpruen » Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:14 pm

terrastudios wrote: Opps @ upside down - my excuse is i wrote it at 1am :P

I wonder what other cars use the Bosch system thats fitted to the 400 turbos.
It's easy to do things like that, particularly if you are tired. Just had to correct it for those following the topic. I have done the same sort of thing a few times myself.

Porche added the turbo to the B18FT, so the same system isn't fitted to much. The Saabs of the same sort of era have something not to far off, but not that close either.

Nearest thing seems to be Porsche 928. I haven't looked at the ECUs for one of those myself, but schematics are closer than anything else out there. There was a drawing on the web that someone made from 928 ECUs, but it seems to have gone away....

Richard
Car Status: Squashed :(
Now have 765 GLE 2.8 V6

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