That's what I call a special 480 engine

[rpruen]

Ooooo Just noticed this thread. Hell thats a lot of work. Total respect to Richa and TeamVolvo

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True it's a lot of work. More than it seems.

There isn't that much more to do till phase one is over (fitting everything). Then it's on to running the engine in, and sorting out some basic tuning.

Then the plan is to leave it a while to save some more money. Then the fun starts again sorting out the gearbox, and getting some drive to the rear wheels.

Richard

[rpruen]

I think the balance it not so big problem. My car didnt have rear ARB at all when i bought it but i added it later.

Custom exhaust manifold would be nice and it really gives more power atleast i know one B18FT where it did. But i dont have TIG welder so i cant do it myself, and that is when it gets difficult.

I did think about a manifold. Sadly I don't have the room to do it. To make it worth doing the tubes need to be tuned to the right length. Doing that means that the turbo ends up somewhere over the gearbox. The manifold then needs to be made of stainless steel because it needs to be lagged to keep the heat in.

Moving the engine 20mm isn't so hard. A 10mm plate under the rear engine mount, and a 10mm plate welded onto the end of the bracket that bolts to the engine/gearbox with holes drilled 10mm lower than normal. That will move the engine 10mm forward and 20mm upwards. That gives enough clearance to work with.

Also the compressor housing on my turbo wouldn't fit if the ARB was moved, it would still hit the bulkhead. Though beating with a hammer would sort that out easily enough.

Hmm... normal black steel could really be too slack so i have to think about this.

Off-Topic: Richard you got some OFF-topic e-mail...

I tried bending the anti-roll bar, but it's made of something very hard and springy. Putting over 2 tonnes of pressure on it had no effect at all.

Off-topic: Have seen the email. Will check it out, but it's a bit of work to find out what is going on.

Richard

[rpruen]

One thing I forgot to mention... Many thanks to Chris and Edd, without help from them this would not have been possible.

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

Hi!

good to read that everything is about to go on fine

It´s looking more and more like a little bit crazy project *LOL* with lot´s of work an things which have to be done and many things to think about before they can be done

Did I read correctly that you want to try to build a 4 wheel driven 480 ?

Cheers

Tobi

@ Rich ... did my last Emails arrive at yours ? and do you probably have an Idea in fact of a stonger clutch ? at the moment I´ve the problem that the clutch in 480 starts slipping when full throtteling ... so I probably need one which is capable of min 400 Nm, but haven´t found one which is fitting so far.

[rpruen]

Hi!

good to read that everything is about to go on fine

It's getting there, it will be nice to drive the car again. It's been so long that I have forgotten what it is like.

It´s looking more and more like a little bit crazy project *LOL* with lot´s of work an things which have to be done and many things to think about before they can be done

There is lots of planning, more than is nice. As for crazy? Maybe a little, but it's not any worse than trying to fit a V8 in the 480, and people have considered that.

Did I read correctly that you want to try to build a 4 wheel driven 480 ?

That is the idea. It shouldn't be that hard to do. I have a fairly good idea of how to do it. Putting that into practice is going to be a little bit of a chalange, but not so bad.

Let's face it 300+ bhp into two wheels just doesn't go.

@ Rich ... did my last Emails arrive at yours ? and do you probably have an Idea in fact of a stonger clutch ? at the moment I´ve the problem that the clutch in 480 starts slipping when full throtteling ... so I probably need one which is capable of min 400 Nm, but haven´t found one which is fitting so far.

I may have got the emails, but they could have fallen off the bottom of the list. Sorry about that, please resend them.

The clutch is a problem.. I have some ideas about making two plates fit, by machining the flywheel, and adding a sliding plate attached to the flywheel to sandwich inbetween the two plates. The spring pressure remains the same, the surface area doubles, so the torque that can be transmitted will double.

Another one for the crazy ideas department?

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

Hi again

Yes you´re surely right ... 300+bhp with only two wheels wouldn´t be that much fun ... only for your tire dealer *lol* so I´m curious how the 4 wheel drive cenvertion is going to work, but at first the engine must be uo and running I thin or am I wrong

I have resent the Emails to you so hope they´ve arrived now.

About the clutch ...
do you think this is going to work with two plates ? and which knid of plates do you want to use for this ? the standart ones ?
I had a phone call with a Volvo dealer at Hamburg this week about the clutch an he told me that it should be possible to use a Reanult 2.2L flywheel wich has a diameter od 240mm and a V40 gearbox with it, so a bigger clutch which is capable of more tourque.
Another thing I thougt about is to use a "sintermetall" clutch plate which also should be capable of more power / tourque but probably isn´t that good driveable like an organic plat at the daily use. A friend of mine had bought a metall plate version for his VW2 Golf 1.8T conversion and it should be capable for up to 500NM ... so probably this also could be a working idea at the 480 !? but I´m going to get some more infos about this plates.


Cheers

Tobi

[yknot]

i have a friend with a r5gtt- volvo1.7t, with some mods: t3 turbo, stand alone management, custom exhaust, omp ceramic clutch, etc ... - 230bhp and 350nm - and after front slick installation, clutch start to slip.... omp said that clutch manage well up to 500nm.... so...

[rpruen]

Hi again

Yes you´re surely right ... 300+bhp with only two wheels wouldn´t be that much fun ... only for your tire dealer *lol* so I´m curious how the 4 wheel drive cenvertion is going to work, but at first the engine must be uo and running I thin or am I wrong

Hi to you again!

The engine first. Then it's a matter of sorting out the clutch and gearbox. When the gearbox is done, the parts for 4 wheel drive will be added. As it requires modifications to the gearbox to do that.

I have resent the Emails to you so hope they´ve arrived now.

Recieved ok thanks.

About the clutch ...
do you think this is going to work with two plates ? and which knid of plates do you want to use for this ? the standart ones ?
I had a phone call with a Volvo dealer at Hamburg this week about the clutch an he told me that it should be possible to use a Reanult 2.2L flywheel wich has a diameter od 240mm and a V40 gearbox with it, so a bigger clutch which is capable of more tourque.
Another thing I thougt about is to use a "sintermetall" clutch plate which also should be capable of more power / tourque but probably isn´t that good driveable like an organic plat at the daily use. A friend of mine had bought a metall plate version for his VW2 Golf 1.8T conversion and it should be capable for up to 500NM ... so probably this also could be a working idea at the 480 !? but I´m going to get some more infos about this plates.


Cheers

Tobi

I'm not so sure about the sintered plates, I have bad reports from people using them. The two plate idea should work, however it will take some work to get it right. Maybe a multi plate racing clutch would be easier to fit, I think something should be available to fit, but would require converting to hydralic clutch release.

On a side note, the lesser version of my engine is up and running with a T25. There is a small amount of tweaking left to do, but it's looking good so far. The look on Edd's face when the boost hit almost 2 bar, was priceless. Although there was a lot of hair tearing early on that turned out to be a faulty MAP sensor.

The hybrid clutch held up ok as well, so that's quite positive too

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

Hi @ all

Hi again

Yes you´re surely right ... 300+bhp with only two wheels wouldn´t be that much fun ... only for your tire dealer *lol* so I´m curious how the 4 wheel drive cenvertion is going to work, but at first the engine must be uo and running I thin or am I wrong

Hi to you again!

The engine first. Then it's a matter of sorting out the clutch and gearbox. When the gearbox is done, the parts for 4 wheel drive will be added. As it requires modifications to the gearbox to do that.

Ok so the first thing will be to get the engine finished and running propper and when this is done the next stpes with in fact of the gearbox and 4wheel drive will follw

I have resent the Emails to you so hope they´ve arrived now.

Recieved ok thanks.

Thanks too also received your answer!

About the clutch ...
do you think this is going to work with two plates ? and which knid of plates do you want to use for this ? the standart ones ?
I had a phone call with a Volvo dealer at Hamburg this week about the clutch an he told me that it should be possible to use a Reanult 2.2L flywheel wich has a diameter od 240mm and a V40 gearbox with it, so a bigger clutch which is capable of more tourque.
Another thing I thougt about is to use a "sintermetall" clutch plate which also should be capable of more power / tourque but probably isn´t that good driveable like an organic plat at the daily use. A friend of mine had bought a metall plate version for his VW2 Golf 1.8T conversion and it should be capable for up to 500NM ... so probably this also could be a working idea at the 480 !? but I´m going to get some more infos about this plates.


Cheers

Tobi

I'm not so sure about the sintered plates, I have bad reports from people using them. The two plate idea should work, however it will take some work to get it right. Maybe a multi plate racing clutch would be easier to fit, I think something should be available to fit, but would require converting to hydralic clutch release.

Hum ok ... I think I´m going to have a look about how the sintered clutch of my mate here is working when his engine is up and running, but I also heared that there sometimes are some problems with the sintered versions. So I´ll probably give the "sachs racing support" another call to ask if there is probably a two plate version for the 215mm flywheel version ... the thing about the hydraulic conversion shouldn´t be undoable if it´s necessary
Would ne nice to have a clutch which is capable of enough tourque to tweak my engine a little bit further
At the moment it´s running very well ... had been accelerating from 90km/h to 180km/h at the 4th gear and it took arround 10secs whichs isn´t so bad I think., makes lot´s of fun driving at the moment.

On a side note, the lesser version of my engine is up and running with a T25. There is a small amount of tweaking left to do, but it's looking good so far. The look on Edd's face when the boost hit almost 2 bar, was priceless. Although there was a lot of hair tearing early on that turned out to be a faulty MAP sensor.

The hybrid clutch held up ok as well, so that's quite positive too

Richard

Hehe did you make a pic of Edds face ?!
I can imagine that it must have been very impressive to feel the acceleration when the boost starts to give some nice power to the engine ^^

What is it with the hybrid clutch ? and do you probably have another 3bar MAP sensor which you don´t need or do you know where to get one and how much it would be ?

Cheers!

Tobi

[rpruen]

Hi @ all


Hum ok ... I think I´m going to have a look about how the sintered clutch of my mate here is working when his engine is up and running, but I also heared that there sometimes are some problems with the sintered versions. So I´ll probably give the "sachs racing support" another call to ask if there is probably a two plate version for the 215mm flywheel version ... the thing about the hydraulic conversion shouldn´t be undoable if it´s necessary
Would ne nice to have a clutch which is capable of enough tourque to tweak my engine a little bit further
At the moment it´s running very well ... had been accelerating from 90km/h to 180km/h at the 4th gear and it took arround 10secs whichs isn´t so bad I think., makes lot´s of fun driving at the moment.

I will be interested to hear about the clutch too. Does the sintered clutch also eat the flywheel? Late turbo flywheels aren't all that easy to find, and if they start to wear down, it's going to be a bad thing.

I have some ideas about using two plates, as I say, and installing a support bearing at the flywheel end of the gearbox shaft. The bearing will help to keep the gearbox bearings alive as well.

Hehe did you make a pic of Edds face ?!
I can imagine that it must have been very impressive to feel the acceleration when the boost starts to give some nice power to the engine ^^

Acceleration is one thing to call it. More like massive wheelspin, even with dry roads. Maybe it's time to start testing the boost in 4th gear, but the problem is that the car is going to fast at that point.

Trying to take pictures when that is happening, and also in the dark... Somehow I don't think it's going to work.

What is it with the hybrid clutch ? and do you probably have another 3bar MAP sensor which you don´t need or do you know where to get one and how much it would be ?

The details of the clutch are a bit fuzzy. There is another topic in this section with the details I have. The clutch was supplied by a company who supply clutches. Trying to get deatials from the numbers on the cluch plate didn't get very far.

Map sensors I can get, but only new ones. I replied to your email with details. I don't have any spares ones. Only one broken one that won't be any use for anything.

Richard

[martinholmesuk]

Acceleration is one thing to call it. More like massive wheelspin, even with dry roads. Maybe it's time to start testing the boost in 4th gear, but the problem is that the car is going to fast at that point.

I remember us missing the turn off for burger king (while at MatBat's) and you gave it the boooost and we fooking took off!

bit like the time Vader was racing you off the roundabout and we both gave it some well until you passed me

Happy Days!

[rpruen]

I remember us missing the turn off for burger king (while at MatBat's) and you gave it the boooost and we fooking took off!

bit like the time Vader was racing you off the roundabout and we both gave it some well until you passed me

Happy Days!

Yes indeed, but you are more of a nutter than I am.

I also remember the time when my car had too fast spool up, and it was almost impossible not to wheelspin.

I wonder what 2.5 to 3 bar of boost is going to do? I think I may need the 4 wheel drive, or it's going to get very silly.

Richard

[rpruen]

A few updated pictures for you.

Mostly just finishing things off, and sorting out where the MAF is going to go. I seem to have used up 99% of the available space in the engine bay, but the bonnet closes ok.

http://www.richard.pruen.btinternet.co. ... t-view.jpg

http://www.richard.pruen.btinternet.co. ... s-view.jpg

http://www.richard.pruen.btinternet.co. ... s-view.jpg

http://www.richard.pruen.btinternet.co. ... sioner.jpg

Just about all the pictures are updated here, there is also a sound file of the supercharger. Could be that it's a little on the loud side

http://www.richard.pruen.btinternet.co. ... ercharger/

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

Hi!

good to see that you´r project is going on

So thumbs up that everything is about to work fine!

Thx for the updated new pics ... everytime nice to soo some progress

Cheers

Tobi

[Ettore Bugatti]

Looks busy in there!

Wouldn't be idea eventually to put some bike throttle bodies on it?

Like this?

[TommiS]

Very very impressive work

I though that b18ft fills the engine bay pretty good as standard but this is something extraordinary....

[rpruen]

Looks busy in there!

Wouldn't be idea eventually to put some bike throttle bodies on it?

It depends on your design criteria. I would like to keep the long intake runners, as it's going to make things much easier when fitting a custom cam. The long runners will allow a bit more overlap of the valves without causing problems at low rpms. It's a road car afterall.

What I am trying to do is make something with a wide torque band, and that isn't going to be a pain in the behind to drive in traffic. If I was after maximum power alone, then it would be easier, as I could use less boost and move the powerband up the RPM range, short intakes would be an advantage then.

I can't see any real advantage in changing the standard throttle body for flow reasons, it's already 38% bigger than the intake valve. Anything that needs to be done for servicing etc is possible without much more problem than normal. Maybe I'll change my mind later, who can say?

Richard

[rpruen]

Very very impressive work

I though that b18ft fills the engine bay pretty good as standard but this is something extraordinary....

Thanks

Filling the space up is easy, doing it in a way that allows the parts to be fitted in some sort of sensible way.... That's a lot harder. In fact I got so fed up of bolting parts to the engine, only to remove, and repeat, while making modifications, that I almost gave up on the whole thing.

If I had known it would be as much trouble when I started, then I wouldn't have even tried. The end is in sight now, at least as far as the mechanical stuff goes.

Richard

[Ettore Bugatti]

It depends on your design criteria. .... Maybe I'll change my mind later, who can say?

Richard

I did some extensive literature research (aka google ) on designing a inlet manifold.

There's a lot of theory and formulas to calculate the dimensions. But I find them conflicting. They are best used as guideline and optimizing the design should happen on a dyno and/or flowbench.
So the orginal manifold should be the best you could get while modifying the engine in a certain range.
However you are building an engine with about tripple the power (airflow) then orginal. I would imagine that even the first designed manifold out of your hat will work better then the Volvo one (or should I say Porsche?).

Runner lenghts do tune the torque curve, but the greatest gain would be around 10% and in other areas you could lose 10%. If the spec of your new camshaft is too different the manifold wont work as good as it used to.

After the research Im much more after the setup BMW uses on the M3 then Honda on the Integra Type-R. Both of them are 100hp/l engines, but the intake manifold are complete different.
The BMW use a setup with individual throttle bodies, short runners and the biggest plenum they could fit a (about 13l volume)
Honda use a setup with tuned runners (quite long) and a small plenum (about 1l) and a single throttle body.
I guess the BMW setup would be better for DIY person since you only try to get the most possible air in the engine. Other advantages are the trottle respons and top end performance.

Im not to critize your work(I couldn't do it, so again thumbs up), but just for the late nights philosphy

[rpruen]

I did some extensive literature research (aka google ) on designing a inlet manifold.

Yep done that too, and it's all a bit wooly, and that's being positive about the whole thing.

However you are building an engine with about tripple the power (airflow) then orginal. I would imagine that even the first designed manifold out of your hat will work better then the Volvo one (or should I say Porsche?).

Porsche made the manifold for the B18FP engine (I think) it's made for a NA engine, that much is clear.

As for tripple the airflow (mass), that is true, but the airflow (volume) is aproximatly the same. The only place that isn't true is before the inlet to the supercharger, where the volume is 3 times. Density changes will increase the speed of travel of the reflected waves (in theory) but not by all that much. Later I will measure what happens.

The intake manifold realy doesn't do much for the turbo engine because of the cam it has. It may well help to spool the turbo up by cramming a little more air into the cylinders at low rpm. It seems to do more for the ES engine.

Runner lenghts do tune the torque curve, but the greatest gain would be around 10% and in other areas you could lose 10%. If the spec of your new camshaft is too different the manifold wont work as good as it used to.

I'm thinking there will be more benifit from the manifold when moving to a higher performace cam. The cam would be more like the NA cam, so it should work better.... If not, then I can always try something else, after what has been done so far, it's resonably minor to change the intake manifold.

After the research Im much more after the setup BMW uses on the M3 then Honda on the Integra Type-R. Both of them are 100hp/l engines, but the intake manifold are complete different.
The BMW use a setup with individual throttle bodies, short runners and the biggest plenum they could fit a (about 13l volume)
Honda use a setup with tuned runners (quite long) and a small plenum (about 1l) and a single throttle body.
I guess the BMW setup would be better for DIY person since you only try to get the most possible air in the engine. Other advantages are the trottle respons and top end performance.

Im not to critize your work(I couldn't do it, so again thumbs up), but just for the late nights philosphy

There is the other point to consider..... I want to get the car running again. I could keep making new parts and fitting them forever, it has to stop sometime I have a plan to be able to switch from long, to a short intake path, that I hatched a while ago.

I don't mind this sort of thing it throws up new ideas.

Richard