Rescue Car: R3

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jifflemon
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Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:13 pm

So, thought I'd break a new thread for this (mainly because it'll be in the right place!)

For those that don't know, the original thread is here

It was originally going to be a donor vehicle, was then discovered to be in MUCH better condition than the original eBay pictures suggested.

A brief history:
dragonflyjewels wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:29 pm
It's the usual story on a relatively rust free example - bought new by someone with a garage who loved it, looked after it and kept it long term. In this case until he died a few years back leaving it to be inherited by his son. The son used it for a year or so but had a very limited budget and no garage so problems weren't fixed and the car ended up just left parked on the drive. Our man the ace fabricator bought it with half an idea of doing it himself - he does all sorts of weird restorations and whacky conversions for some seriously wealthy clients so this was a bit ordinary for him, hence it ended up on ebay.
So, the car arrived and the first step was to engage detective mode; Its the initial assessment to help get it back on the road as quickly as possible.

The car was already something of a bombsite. The dashboard, along with dash surrounds had been removed. The back seat was out and in a semi re-assembled state, and there was the obligatory "box of bits" in the boot. So, first step was an audit. What was missing, or needed.

Dashboard itself was awol. Messages have been dispatched to the Bodyshop to locate this, as it's a rare red/yellow plug version used on the earliest models.

We were also missing a rear washer jet - a tad annoying as I'd already donated my spare!

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So, before going any further, it was time for a bit of decluttering! This:

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Became this:

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Because I'm going to have to have my head in that footwell quite a lot! :rofl:

Popping the roof rails off revealed a surprising lack of filth build up - These are normally stuffed with horribleness!

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One thing we did miss on initial inspection, were two tiny dents in the roof - You can make them out in the refelection of the tree

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Although interestingly, they appear to be from the inside, going out (or up)...

The very special rear lights

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And to be honest, I have something of a soft spot for these; Don't get me wrong, they're bloody awful, but obviously the car, at some point, needed a pair of rear lights. I'm presuming right about the time they became unobtainium and silly money. The previous owner then created these so that they could keep the car running - That, in itself, deserves applauding.

The scuttle never lets us down as a dirt trap....
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And also notice the Map sensor is off the bracket?

Anyway, whilst clearing the scuttle I found this:

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Just how it ended up IN THE SCUTTLE is perhaps one mystery too much....

However, our detective work revealed we've had some starting issues previously:

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First thing to note is the replacement wiring for the "start" wire, the second is the additional earth strap from anti-roll bar to gearbox.

Now we should all know that I approve of additional earth straps! Just not, sadly, when they're like this:

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We've some "interesting" work to correct on the positive side too

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:shock:

as well as some plumbing....

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MisterH
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by MisterH » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:32 am

Wow this really is becoming a detective scene! I agree that the late owner should be applauded for going the extra mile to fabricate new lights to keep the çar alive. I have had a soft spot for this one since it was rescued but I don't have the space to be able to commit and guarantee its preservation (I am by no means careless just don't have garage space)

I do appreciate you donating your spare washer jet to me very much, I guess the guide I made on getting it out it can be useful :)

Look forward to seeing where this goes, just super excited to see a petrol blue example :hopping:
Current Jobs to do (6/6/21):
Fix Central Locking
Fix drivers side speaker
suspension creaking below 40mph
Un-F*ck the car

jifflemon
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:15 pm

And so, on with some detective work....

So, we knew the car was a non-runner. They though it was fuel pump related.
Quite why they ripped the dashboard out, we'll never know (but may yet discover) however, onwards we go....

So, battery on, ignition on (hard to know without a dashboard!) and we have a fondle of the relays under the dash. No click.
One relay is the "control" relay, the second is the ignition live. the control relay triggers the ignition relay, which sends power to things like the injectors, sensors and fuel pump.
Pull them both out, clean up the terminals, reinstall and both now click, so that's a positive sign. (no pun intended)

Repeat the test and now check for 12v to the pump. Yup. We're getting a feed.

that means Oh joy... dead pump. I HATE dealing with fuel!

A quick jaunt down to lakes, as they had that early car and I discovered I'd been beaten to it. The same story for the squashed one in the back.
Honestly, there's very little left to salvage on either car now.
However, they did have a pump on the shelf. Remember, this is an early car with the smaller tank. Fingers crossed the pumps are the same!

Thankfully the fuel lines undid without too much of a fight, and pump removal revealed an almost full tank of fuel! Bonus! :lol:

The good news stopped there - the pumps are different. The later tank is obviously deeper/taller, and as such, whilst the pump will sit in the tank, it won't fasten down.

Ever so slight annoyed, the old pump was given some "percussive maintenance".

Success! :lol: So, it was buttoned back and reinstalled into the tank.

12v to the pump and I could hear it whirring away!

Shall we try a start then?

It burst instantly into life, then stopped. Try again. Same thing....

So, my first thought was - Weak fuel pump, or it's losing the fuel pump feed.

So, 12v Direct to fuel pump. Pump whirring away like a good 'un. Starts then stops.
Just for giggles, I manually closed both relays. Starts then stops.

So it's not the relays.

Weak fuel pump? Remove fuel pump, drop in the big tank fuel pump, try again. Starts then stops.

OK..... So I think we've ruled out fuel....

Next steps. Since it's happy to start during cranking, ignition circuit must be ok.

Crank sensor seems an obvious choice. Tested both for output, and for resistance. Both ok, but also tested by substitution.
So, Crank sensor ruled out.

Now the only other component that the ECU can't compensate for, is the MAP sensor.

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Wait a minute.... the map sensor was pulled off wasn't it? A-HA!

Alas, our detective skills didn't quite work out - MAP sensor reads correctly, and again, substitution testing confirmed it was fine. (it's VERY bloody handy have two near identical cars!)

Surely it can't be ECU?

Nope. Swapped ECU's both ways (R3 running on R1, R1 running on R3).

Could it be electrical???

Whilst pondering, I needed one of those "quick victories", so that horrible earth cable was removed and a new end soldered on

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and then refitted.

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Whilst refitting, I noticed the horns were disconnected. Connecting them had them blaring! A-HA! It's immobilised!

a quick peek towards the CEM showed ominous signs....

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Not just the chocolate block connectors, but the "scrapyard pen of doom"

CEM whipped out, and a spare one (with a known fault) popped in.

Horns now working just fine and dandy! Great! Fire it up!

It burst instantly into life, then stopped. AGAIN :angry:

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jamescarruthers
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jamescarruthers » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:21 pm

Well done on the progress mate. This will be a fine 480 when done I'm sure.

SPECULATIVE GUESS WORK BASED ON VERY LITTLE: Could the modified starter wiring be pointing to a poorly ignition key switch? On a completely different car I had to add a relay to the starter trigger wire as the previous owner had a very heavy bunch of keys and the engine would stop randomly. Could you swap the ignition switches (just the white bit on the back of the metal lock) over from car to car?
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
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Alan 480
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by Alan 480 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:41 pm

jamescarruthers wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:21 pm
Well done on the progress mate. This will be a fine 480 when done I'm sure.

SPECULATIVE GUESS WORK BASED ON VERY LITTLE: Could the modified starter wiring be pointing to a poorly ignition key switch? On a completely different car I had to add a relay to the starter trigger wire as the previous owner had a very heavy bunch of keys and the engine would stop randomly. Could you swap the ignition switches (just the white bit on the back of the metal lock) over from car to car?
looks as if you are getting there, even if slowly....

similar issue with a Morris Marina, large bunch of keys was 'just' enough to turn off the key/break the circuit and it would restart on the button.

PS what's wrong with copper plumbing, used it on the SS1 as the plumbing to/from the heater matrix is NLA and it replaced a 1/2" to 1" rubber adaptor that is a know weak point
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by Jay-Kay-Em » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:34 pm

Great write up Jeff - who would of thought a MAP sensor would be a critical sensor. Alas not the issue but good to know.
jifflemon wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:15 pm

Next steps. Since it's happy to start during cranking, ignition circuit must be ok.
Not necessarily >if< the system has a ballast resistor. If the resistor circuit has issues they'll crank and fire on the bypass system, but when they go to the 'running' resistor they die. Check coil voltages ign on, cranking and (what you can) of running.

Me and Alan are in the copper plumbing camp :lol: - at least I paint mine black to make it look slightly more OE :wink:

"Breakers yard pen of doom" :rofl:

I saw a Peugeot the other day with a rear tail lamp installed which a) still had the yellow pen writing on the lens and b) spelt Peugeot wrong :lol:

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MisterH
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by MisterH » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:48 pm

From what you describe it does sound like a MAP sensor issue, very familiar from when I got mine, I hope you have one spare, but I seem to remember they are on the bay quite easily
Current Jobs to do (6/6/21):
Fix Central Locking
Fix drivers side speaker
suspension creaking below 40mph
Un-F*ck the car

jifflemon
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:18 pm

MisterH wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:48 pm
From what you describe it does sound like a MAP sensor issue, very familiar from when I got mine, I hope you have one spare, but I seem to remember they are on the bay quite easily
jifflemon wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:15 pm
Wait a minute.... the map sensor was pulled off wasn't it? A-HA!

Alas, our detective skills didn't quite work out - MAP sensor reads correctly, and again, substitution testing confirmed it was fine. (it's VERY bloody handy have two near identical cars!)
:D
Jay-Kay-Em wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Not necessarily >if< the system has a ballast resistor. If the resistor circuit has issues they'll crank and fire on the bypass system, but when they go to the 'running' resistor they die. Check coil voltages ign on, cranking and (what you can) of running.
Very true, but ballasted stuff tends to be the stuff of contact breakers and 'oribleness..... Thankfully none of that here!
Alan 480 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:41 pm
PS what's wrong with copper plumbing, used it on the SS1 as the plumbing to/from the heater matrix is NLA and it replaced a 1/2" to 1" rubber adaptor that is a know weak point
Done correctly, nothing! However, I'll happy start a book on whether then ends of this copper pipe have been swaged to allow the hose-clip something to seal against.... :lol:
jamescarruthers wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:21 pm
Well done on the progress mate. This will be a fine 480 when done I'm sure.

SPECULATIVE GUESS WORK BASED ON VERY LITTLE: Could the modified starter wiring be pointing to a poorly ignition key switch? On a completely different car I had to add a relay to the starter trigger wire as the previous owner had a very heavy bunch of keys and the engine would stop randomly. Could you swap the ignition switches (just the white bit on the back of the metal lock) over from car to car?
Rather than swap switches, I'll just bypass it all together.... Good shout!

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:24 pm

Just a few updates to this one:

Ignition switch bypassed - starts then stops

Had a friend come by (pre-lockdown) who became equally fascinated by the problem.

He went step by step, troubleshooting and coming to the same conclusions I had. Whilst it got me no further, at least I’d not missed anything!

Changed the fuel filter today, just on the off chance it was blocking fuel - nope!

It does feel fuel like - it’ll crank, start and idle for about 2 seconds before dying.
If you try and crank with wide open throttle it’ll start and die much quicker.
If you try to Rev post start, it’ll die

Current musings are:

Fuel pressure - even though I’ve swapped regulators, I’m probably going to order a fuel pressure kit so I can see the pressure.

Fuel ratio - either a massive air leak or massive over fuelling. Plugs aren’t really going to tell me much as it’s only ever seen rich start mixture. I’ve blocked off the vacuum feed to the alien eggs in the wing (yes, it’s got the vacuum system heater), but that didn’t change anything either.

Fuel itself - bit of curve ball one, but there’s a full tank of unknown fuel in there. However, if it’s good enough to start, it should be good enough to stay running. I did consider trying a squirty bottle of fuel spraying into the inlet but you need a second person for that sort thing!

After the pressure gauge arrives, I may rig up a temporary fuel system (jerry can of fuel, using the spare pump) to see if that produces any different results.

The biggest problem right now is zero degree weather! Not good for working in!

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:55 pm

Good news people.... She runs! :hopping: :hopping: :hopping:

So, what was the issue?

Well, I'm kicking myself a little here, but.....

The map sensor :shock:

Yes, yes, I know. I'd tested it right? I tested the resistance, and even swapped it with R1's. So what gives?

Well, stay with me a little while....

I was quite literally going stir crazy with troubleshooting the damn thing. Both my friend and I were now in complete melt down, as it just didn't make ANY sense. A fuel pressure test kit was ordered, as it could potentially be that the pump had enough go to pressurise the line, but fell off once running. Yes, I'd swapped and ran it on the larger pump, but hey, that was a second hand pump, so maybe it wasn't the best? We also considered a blocked exhaust (but dismissed as the car would instantly restart), as well as the incorrect ECU for the car.

For those that don't know, there's an early Fenix 1.0 electrical system, but from Chassis number 520281 the engine gets the Fenix 3.2 ECU. The 3.2 has air temperature and coolant temperature sensors of NTC variety, identified by blue connectors. The early system sensors are of PTC variety (and, from what I gather, unobtainium). Now, R3's chassis is 532821, so obviously Fenix 3.2. ECU was a Bendix S101290101D

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And here's where I fell down the rabbit hole.... Google search produces hits for ECU's S101290101C, S101290101D, S101290101E and S101290101F. Maybe this was the issue? Wrong ECU for the year? I had a spare ECU - S101706102A, googling that Yielded A+B variants. So, this is starting to make a little more sense (in this utterly confusing time). Were A+B the Fenix 1 ECU's, I'd whilst I'd got a 3.2 ECU, perhaps it was a slightly later variant and that's what's stopping the car?

So the Help SOS went out to Sylvia and Alan, as they've got a breadth of knowledge on all things 480. We all kicked the idea around for a while, googling trying to match ECU numbers, when Sylvia found a post from some bloke called James Carruthers, describing identical symptoms, all cured by replacing the map sensor.

It may have been pitch dark and sub zero temperatures, but outside I stormed. This time, I removed the map sensor from it's bracket. I pulled the pipe back through the bulkhead and instead of a 90 degree rubber bend, found something that more resembled a 180 degree bend. Connected up back up and boom, the car started and idled for longer than it's ever done in it's time with me.

Relieved is an understatement.

What I suspect was happening is that when mounted on the bracket (which sits in front of the relay box), the rubber pipe was bent through such angle that it was actually closed, thus preventing the map sensor providing data to the ECU. And as I mentioned earlier...
jifflemon wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:15 pm
Now the only other component that the ECU can't compensate for, is the MAP sensor.
It also explains why the map sensor worked on R1 and why R1's wouldn't fix R3 (because I was doing things properly, bolting stuff down where it should be, rather than leaving it flopping around.

so..... Lesson learned!

And next? well, still plenty to do! High priority now the engine is running is a Full service and Belts change. No idea when it was last done, so that's current focus. However, I shall leave you with these....

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I'm sure most will figure it out....

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MisterH
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by MisterH » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:06 pm

Reminds me of what happened with mine, popped a new MAP in and started first time, that was around 2 years ago now, need to do a commemorative post...


Well done on catching the rabbit in the hole, that is truly great, I am excited to see where this goes next!
Current Jobs to do (6/6/21):
Fix Central Locking
Fix drivers side speaker
suspension creaking below 40mph
Un-F*ck the car

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:17 pm

So, for those that didn't guess from the pictures.... it was cleaning time! :rofl:

As well as cleaning, it was also getting the start of its revival service stuff. It'll get a bigger "proper" clean later, but for now, first point of order was Plugs, cap, rotor and leads.

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it's safe to say the plugs were overdue....

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So, to remove all that crap from around the plugs, I used a combination of a pick and compressed air in a can.

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Once all the crap was cleared, they were pulled and were clearly long passed their best

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And obviously filthy black from a good year of only running in 2 second intervals....

Cap, rotor and shield pulled off, gives fabulous access to clean a bit more....

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the cap also has the handy guide for the plug order.

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and all the leads neatly clipped back into the holders

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Also spotted that along with that additional earth cable, they'd also butchered the negative one - Thinking about it, I suspect they bought one long earth strap and made 2 cables from it!

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So, lopped off the bad end, soldered and heatshrunk an nice new one on instead.

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So, after a little cleaninging, its looking like this:

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Now it might seem silly but

1) A clean engine bay makes it easier to spot leaks.
2) A clean engine bay is a nicer place to work in!
3) I get the products for free, so it's one less job someone has to pay for.
4) I'm reviving this car, not you, so if you don't like it, well tough! :rofl:

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MisterH
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by MisterH » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:36 pm

Very nice work! I'm not a fan of the steam cleaned look that you get at shows, needs to look used or at least have a bit of oil here and there, but I like what you have done with it, how do you get the products free?
Current Jobs to do (6/6/21):
Fix Central Locking
Fix drivers side speaker
suspension creaking below 40mph
Un-F*ck the car

jifflemon
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:13 pm

MisterH wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:36 pm
how do you get the products free?
Perk of the job!

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by arthuy » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:30 pm

are you doing a timing belt change on this one?

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by jifflemon » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:01 am

Yup, they all get pretty much the same "formula", full service, all belts, brake fluid flush etc

Got to try and give them the best new start as possible

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dcwalker
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by dcwalker » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:46 am

Looking so much better than when I last saw her, Jeff :D

I'm exactly with you on clean engine bays. I always have a good clean, not going for the showroom look, but definitely make them a nice place to work and make it easy to spot any leaks. And when the car comes into your possession, once the major clean is done it's easy to keep on top of it.

One thing though, looking at your photos - don't forget to put some coolant back in her ;) :lol:

Now, which of you nice people on here wants to consider giving R3 a lovely new home?

David
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Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by MisterH » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:09 am

Well I love the colour of R3, but can't commit due to having no space, and it technically makes no sense as it is just the same as mine (but when has it ever had to make sense)

I do also have non-480 car goals this year, but as we are also having a house build again that may be difficult.

If it doesn't sell maybe we can use it as a press car, sending it out to people who want to do 480 related media? Such as Petrolblog and Motoring Research
Current Jobs to do (6/6/21):
Fix Central Locking
Fix drivers side speaker
suspension creaking below 40mph
Un-F*ck the car

Norm57
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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by Norm57 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:22 am

There is a chap on Facebook looking to get back into wedge ownership. I have left him the url for the forum so he may be in touch.

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Re: Rescue Car: R3

Post by Alan 480 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:40 pm

for cleaning the area around the plugs I made up an adaptor for the hoover with a section of 6mm air line, mahooosive sook so when scratch about with a 'pointy thing' it wheeches the debris out and away from the plugs, I could have used the air-line but then the cr@p is blown all over the place....
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

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