My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Here you can start a thread about your 480 days. Only the starter of the thread is allowed to fill his thread, and only one thread per person. Threads are simply a personal diary.

Moderators: jifflemon, coyote1980, Rachel

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:50 am

brinkie wrote:I would recommend converting the 480 to RWD or AWD then... 450 hp on the front wheels of a light car only gives you loads of tire smoke if you touch the accelerator with your little toe :rofl:

Also, are the 480 chassis and brakes capable of handling a considerable larger amount of power than the stock 120 bhp? I have previous experience with a car whose body structure was over-designed to accept a much bigger and more powerful engine, which never left the prototype stage with only 3 cars built. You can recognize the prototypes (2 are still surviving!) by the extra venting to prevent the brakes from overheating. There is a reason Volvo tuned the 1.7 Turbo back from 160-170 bhp to 120...
I always remember getting excited when the 480 was announced... back when Volvo named cars on Series, Number of Cylinders, number of doors.

For a few happy seconds I was lusting over a wedged shape V8 volvo! Then got confused as to how they'd do 0 doored car.... :cryhard:

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:58 am

ditching power steering is an immediate fail for MoT (I think) :-(

somat about 'obviously modified from power steering', i'll look up page number when i get a chance, it's in the MoT testers manual available online
Last edited by Alan 480 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:15 pm

I can see a problem if you retained the PAS rack but without the hydraulics attached, manual rack with everything removed is surely ok???
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:16 pm

Ade, I kind of thought the same but when I had an issue with ours I did a quick check . . . .

From MoT manual section 2.3.3

Power steering malfunctioning or inoperative or evidence that power assistance has been removed or disconnected when it is known that power steering is standard on the vehicle

I think the key word is 'standard' :-(

look it up . . . .

awful useful , it also has stuff about Single Vehicle use etc on one section . . . . .

https://www.gov.uk/topic/mot/manuals
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:33 pm

Good to know mate, bit shit though ain't it? Hopefully this will be a mute point anyway as I would like to retain the PAS unless there's absolutely no way the engine will fit with the pump attached. If I do go manual rack there's two saving graces that occur to me-

1. If it has to be re-registered because of extreme modification (which is likely) then the change of steering will be part of the declared modifications and therefore will be ok (I assume) as the car is accepted to be in a nowhere near standard condition so stuff fitted as standard becomes void anyway I guess as long as it's known about in whatever checks and inspections and declarations have to happen on the road to a Q plate.

2. I have a very friendly MOT tester ;) Not dodgy to the point of allowing dangerous vehicles on the road, he's a good guy, but he's a realist when it comes to classics and mods, I'm sure he'd turn a blind eye, if he even picked up on the fact. As long as the car's not dangerous (apart from with a heavy right foot!), I'll get my test pass :)

Something I am curious about is whether emissions legislation follows the chassis or the engine in a case like this? I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that I will legally be able to run the engine decat as a 1990 car doesn't have to have one. It's not having a cat, no way, no how, legal or not but just curious. It has pre cat lambda, no post so this is all good. I could either keep the downpipe and cut the cat off and weld on a new joint flange of some kind or fabricate from scratch in stainless and weld a boss in for the sensor. Stainless would be nice, lot of work though.

New daily 480 with old engine had a little trick up its sleeve for me today :-? :(

Sat in traffic in Northampton on my way to euro car parts to pick up service bits (of all journeys, would you believe it) and the fan didn't kick in and, as sods law dictates, the traffic was gridlocked and in roadworks with nowhere to go and I had to put the heater on full blast to survive it! She held steady at about 96 C for a good while... bit hot really but all was good. Found plug had come off fan motor, fit isn't great actually, need to do something with it, connector might be broken although it's held on for a good while, the fan has been working faultlessly and is now again. Need to address this ASAP and give it a service as I'm taking it on an evening session at Rockingham soon. It's such good fun to drive I couldn't resist the lure of a track with some of the guys after work :) I'm not going to overkill it but there's still plenty of fun to be had well within the cars comfort zone. Wish her good luck and godspeed on track...
O.C. 480 D.

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:52 pm

You've zero worries on emmissions; Bin the cat.

Because there's not a Saab Engined Volvo in the manual, you'll just be tested on the age of the vehicle.

User avatar
brinkie
480 Veteran
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:20 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by brinkie » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:18 pm

Alan 480 wrote:ditching power steering is an immediate fail for MoT (I think) :-(

somat about 'obviously modified from power steering', i'll look up page number when i get a chance, it's in the MoT testers manual available online
It would if you have only left out the hydraulic pump, but changing the steering rack into an obvious non-assisted version original to the 400-series shouldn't give problems.
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i Vase Green, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum Mystic Silver
Past: 1981 Talbot-Matra Murena 2.2 Rouge Mephisto, 1995 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i Paris Blue

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:43 pm

brinkie wrote:
Alan 480 wrote:ditching power steering is an immediate fail for MoT (I think) :-(

somat about 'obviously modified from power steering', i'll look up page number when i get a chance, it's in the MoT testers manual available online
It would if you have only left out the hydraulic pump, but changing the steering rack into an obvious non-assisted version original to the 400-series shouldn't give problems.
I think it all depends on how friendly Ade's MoT manny is ? ? ? and how the 'standard' is viewed, if garage is 'au fait' with 480, then it would be obvious, if only ever sees one 480 per year ie Ade's then not a problem :D

I have a very friendly MOT tester ;) Not dodgy to the point of allowing dangerous vehicles on the road, he's a good guy, . . . . . . .As long as the car's not dangerous (apart from with a heavy right foot!), I'll get my test pass :)

I've used the same MoT guys for years and always fair, if it's a fail it's a fail . . . . .not in it for the repair money as I always do my own fixes, except twice, once as it was steering rack inner joints, not easy in a narrow drive way with house on each side,
once as it was just easier due to time frame on rear brake hoses although it jarred as I had half the spares in loft already . . . .
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:02 am

I think it all depends on how friendly Ade's MoT manny is ? ?
Very friendly! ;) Genuinely dangerous will fail (rightly so, I firmly believe in vehicle safety testing as most people don't have nearly as much to do with the maintenance of their cars as most of us lot), silly niggles and non standard stuff (as long as it's well done and solid), no problem. For instance, on my blue 480, one of the foglight lenses is broken, and, appreciating the fact that they're like rocking horse shit and failing it would cause me issues trying to get hold of one immediately, he did not fail it on this. Also, like with welding, he know's I look after my cars well and if he does find some corrosion that would technically fail, he will pass it but tell me about it knowing that I will sort it. Same with most other stuff as long as it's not totally knackered to the point of dangerous, he'll let me know in the knowledge that I'm not gonna ignore it and still give me a pass. As I say, he's cool with me because he knows that I genuinely do look after my cars well and that I wouldn't leave anything dodgy unaddressed for long. A nice relationship to have with an MOT tester :)
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:48 am

Ade wrote: if he does find some corrosion that would technically fail, he will pass it but tell me about it knowing that I will sort it. Same with most other stuff as long as it's not totally knackered to the point of dangerous, he'll let me know in the knowledge that I'm not gonna ignore it and still give me a pass. A nice relationship to have with an MOT tester :)
I'm with you there but it does put the guy in a bind if he gives you a pass and then the MoT's MoT inspector stops random cars before you get a chance to fix it :-(

always at back of my mind if they find somat and I haven't seen , that should fail and then they say 'I know you'll fix it, but here's the ticket' now they say 'fix it and bring back later in the week' so we can write a ticket,

maybe me being too honest cos as you say loads of folk with NO MoT, Insurance tax, licence,
if they get caught they get told don't do that again, fined £500 and we'll ban you again :-( they just dump the car as it's only worth £500 and insurance would cost them £700 (if they had a licence)
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:38 pm

just for shits and giggles... it's tight but she goes!
Image
Tell me you don't want a 480 with that under the bonnet ;)

It actually lowered in without cutting or removing anything :hopping: without gearbox obviously, but it was worthwhile just to see how it might end up sitting and give me a chance to take some measurements re. the gearbox with the engine roughly in situ and also to see where I'm gonna need extra clearance. The subframe will still need to be modded I think as the engine will need to sit lower and canted forward further than you see here as the position it's in at the moment, although ok from a mounting and mechanical point of view, would not allow the bonnet to close :lol:

Looking promising though... definitely looking more towards feasible than ridiculous having seen how it dropped in and having taken some more measurements, I think I'm gonna get away with chassis rails unmodded :D gearbox should just tuck under by about 1 1/4" with the crank pulley just clearing on the other side, which has a big fat harmonic balancer thing on it that could be binned to gain another 1" or so if needed :hopping:

One problem I can see in the longer term access for maintenance.... better design it to be easy to take out eh? :rofl: The assembly procedure will definitely involve going from below with no subframe, as is the case in the 9-3
Last edited by Ade on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:21 pm

Got a bit more serious with trying to see how the engine will fit in the 480 today so lifted it out again and got the car up and stripped back a bit. It's a very tight squeeze into the bay!

Image

Image

Yesterdays initial offering highlighted the fact that the sump was going to foul the subframe with the engine low enough to close the bonnet and that the alternator and tensioner setup may need to be changed or the chassis rail nibbled out just a bit to make way for the belt. These are removed from the engine at the moment along with the AC pump, which won't be going back on. It could have been a lot worse, I couldn't have hoped for better really at this stage of the game. The AC pump is attached to the stock engine mount and with both items removed, mounting possibilities are good in this corner. 3x M10 holes, spotfaced to the same plane in the block. Nice and easy to work with.

I decided to see where doing this would get me-
Image

With the subframe lowered to the extent the studs would allow and the PAS pipes moved out the way, I tried again-
Image

Believe it or not, there is clearance between the sump and the subframe, a little more would be nice :lol: I'm wondering about the possibility of modding the sump...

The existing engine mounting point on the subframe will need to go as you can see it's too close to fouling the oil cooler inlet/outlet on the oil filter assembly. The mounting location will be close by but but will need to allow for the filter assembly. It seems that if I were to space the subframe off a little, perhaps replacing the stock bushes altogether with something nice that will space it into the bargain, the dream begins to look more like reality. Longer captive studs will be needed but I think this is going to be an essential part of the plan, ride height can be messed around with later if necessary, it may well sit down a little with extra weight anyway and ride height and suspension considerations can be dealt with when the time comes, along with brakes, tyres etc. The net result of spacing the subframe off and dropping the ride height down to compensate will be no different to lowering the car in terms of geometry, add in a lower ride on standard springs anyway with the extra weight and I think there's a happy compromise to be had.


This is how it looks up top as you see it from below previously-
Image

Image

Image

Image

I think the bonnet might just close :hopping: Believe it or believe it not, as you see it here, that engine is hanging in free space, not touching a thing but it hasn't quite got enough wiggle room, just need to find it that bit of extra space in a few places and hopefully we'll be cooking. Next stage of trying engine and gearbox should be fun... Then for very tedious alignment and checking and measuring and checking and measuring and measuring again and so on until I'm happy enough to actually start bolting and welding. Don't want the whole thing to be on the piss. This will be the first major milestone.
Last edited by Ade on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
O.C. 480 D.

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:28 pm

Is the sump steel or alloy? Either way, it's fairly simple to cut and shut something to suit.

Get the engine back out and get busy with the degreaser! That subframe looks atrocious! :rofl:

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:58 pm

Cast aluminium. Cut and shut is possible, I think this may be a good idea and would go a long way towards the aforementioned 'wiggle room'. Cleaning is a long way off yet, not until welding! The grease and oil have kept it relatively well preserved in places :lol:
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:04 pm

Had another play about with the engine fitment today, I tried it again but this time with the alternator and tensioner on. Fouls the chassis rail a treat :wall: Tensioner is actually ok but the alternator pulley hits with the engine in the same, seemingly sweet, spot.

Obvious thing to do is cut a bit out of the rail and then box it back in with a suitably shaped cutout but there may be another way...

I've been thinking, especially in light of the fact that it seems that subframe mods can be kept to a minimum if it's spaced down a little, that it is going to be better, where possible, to modify the engine to fit the car rather than vice versa as this may mean avoiding the whole q plate and re registration deal, not to mention a lot of tedious fabrication. I wasn't expecting it to go in quite so easily to be honest (although gearbox remains to be seen but measurements seem ok) and so I think I need to concentrate on gaining my wiggle room on the engine, not the car, it's there to be had by changing the sump shape (as long as there's room behind it) and there is a possibility of a 2 belt auxiliary drive solving the alternator issue. It's still just a seed of an idea but I got the idea because the alternator itself is actually in a perfectly ok place but it has an extended pulley to reach out to the line of the belt. By removing the tensioner and idler pulleys and putting a normal pulley on the alternator you could devise a second, offset drivebelt for the alternator. A double belt pulley would sit in place of the tensioner assembly, dropping the drive down to the alternator in a much more streamlined way. Tensioning will have to be rethought, this is the hard work with this approach but ultimately I think this is something that will have to be done along with the sump. These are the first two jobs on the engine I think. I also need to decide what my subframe spacing is going to be and sort that out. Once these things are in place, I can see where I'm at. And I'll clean everything, promise :rofl:
O.C. 480 D.

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:30 pm

Have you checked the Saab models through the years to see if there's any variation in alternator mounting? Or where they've used the same engine in a different model?

And will spacing the subframe down not mess up the geometry? Or are you spacing equally front and rear?

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:46 pm

Spacing will need to be equal, absolutely. Will need to be thought about in terms of rigidity and strength too. There's bound to be a change in geometry but I think getting the ride height right on the springs will be all good. Wishbones inclined upwards, like when lowering a car, gives more camber, not a bad thing as long as it's not too excessive. Whatever the result, it's gonna have to happen so we'll have to just see how it goes :)

Not sure about different alternator drive layouts, I think the b204 kind of comes as it comes in that respect. I quite like the idea of a fancy little custom belt drive anyway, granted, it's a lot of work, but I always knew it was going to be. I used to have a bit to do with industrial belt drive systems professionally a while back and have a fondness for playing with them, this will be a nice part of the project for me and a most satisfying end result. There's nothing quite like seeing a drive system you've made yourself come to life.
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:50 am

Ade

drop sub-frame by two inches and then put the suspension mounts ABOVE it, rather than WITHIN it????

if my memory is correct . . . . . .

keeps suspension geometery 'unchanged?
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:14 pm

I gotta be honest, I don't like the sound of that :eek:

For starters the relationship between the steering rack and wishbones is then changed. This compromises the beauty of the Ackerman principle and the list of issues would go on and on with new brackets having to be made to support the wishbones properly etc etc. Lots of work for nothing and I don't need anything like 2" anyway. What you see in the picture is about 20mm I guess. I'm thinking maybe 30mm as a maximum only if necessary, need to see where I am after the engine mods and then offering in engine and box. Obviously the subframe will be off when they go in and only when I try to refit it will I know how much to space it by and only do the minimum requirement. The sump mod and belt arrangement will buy me lots of precious wiggle room :)

The only change in geometry I see by spacing it is that by increasing the distance from the wishbone mounting to the top mount, you are fractionally pulling the bottom ball joint inwards, giving you the slightest amount more positive camber. By putting the car on suitable springs to achieve a lower ride height again, which will be assisted by the extra weight, the wishbones will be inclined upwards, inducing negative camber to counteract it. In theory, by achieving the correct ride height, the major geometry of the suspension would be almost totally unaltered. In practice, I want this car low anyway, I like the 40mm drop on my black one and it handled a treat on track so that's all good, might have to play around with different springs to tune the ride height as I don't know what to expect when the car is finally fully assembled but I do know it's gonna be heavier upfront than a standard 480! The whole monocoque will just sit up a bit more relative to the subframe, so there will be more subtle changes to the cars overall geometry but I think maintaining subframe and steering as close as possible to original is gonna work for me if spacing it off a little gets me where I need to be. I don't want to have to Q plate it if I'm honest, for several reasons, and so if I can get away without major surgery, I will. I'm into the idea of engine mods to fit car, keep as much of the 480 DNA as possible, this project is not just about the engine, it's a 480 for a reason. I want it to feel 480 but with that wonderful Saab turbo power :D
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:44 am

Ade

only a thought so as to provide more 'food for thought' :-)

I'd forgotten rack was also on sub-frame :wink: mind you the hole for sterring column to go through will need a wee bit of fettling as well, it should be long enough?
I've not had teh whole car apart, as I have with the SS1 which has a proper chassis and only sub-frame carries the diff :-)
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

Post Reply