My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

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Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:50 am

If you're desperate for a modded ECU there is a company in Coventry that can change the eproms in the jetronic and EZK to a similar spec to the robou/richmod but I think they want about £350 if I remember right. I wasn't prepared to spend this, plus, you must know what I'm like by now, I like to be unique! Also, for that money you could be looking at standalone, like a megasquirt, which I may look into in the future now that I know the management wiring so well :lol:

The headlight washer pump crossed my mind as it develops more than sufficient pressure and flow for a mister and it would save installing an additional water reservoir and pump.

Another mod that I am considering (which would replace the mister but could utilise the same switching circuitry and pump as long as the reservoir was kept as pure water without screenwash) is water injection into the manifold. If you look at the left hand side (viewed from front of car) of the inlet manifold under the three little hose tails there's a core plug in the casting about 30mm diameter. If I were to make a 'lance' that could fit in in place of this core plug with some very fine (maybe 0.2-0.3mm) holes positioned to spray a mist directly into each of the four tracts leading into the lower manifold and ports under high boost pressures, I think this would give excellent charge cooling meaning I could run pretty high boost on the standard mapping without it knocking itself to pieces. The drawback with implementing this is that it will require a lot more maths than an intercooler mister to be efficient and effective as the quantity of water is a lot more critical when spraying into the intake as opposed to just misting down an intercooler. I'd have to work out what pressure and flow the pump delivers, what the air/fuel ratio is likely to be when it's activated, the net amount of air and fuel likely to be flowing when it's activated, what size the holes need to be to deliver the right quantity of water at the given delivery pressure and flow etc etc etc. It may even need to utilise something like a rising rate pressure regulator to increase delivery as air/fuel flow increases, I do like the concept but it's whether I ever get time to do all the necessary research and calculations and testing to implement it properly! I'll go with the mister for now :lol: No maths required, just engineers instinct! I would like to install a thermocouple in the manifold though just to see how effective it is at bringing down the charge temp. Even a few degrees is enough to make it safer at higher boost levels as a few degrees difference in intake temp translates to a considerably larger difference once it's been compressed in the cylinder, making the likelihood of knock much less.
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:21 pm

Couldn't resist having another play with the 480 today! Managed to improve, if not totally cure the dash rattles-

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Glued the sheet nut things to the remainder of the broken plastic for the screws above the vent and by the fan switch respectively

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This stuff is really good, totally solid, more than strong enough for the application.

Also notice the large (M8) washer behind the screw just to the right of the repaired tab in the first photo. This gives a decent clamp on a cracked tab and you can position the washer how you want it to suit the way that it's broken. Here's another one underneath the heater controls-

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There's quite a few of these screws holding the dash surround on, I tried to sort as many of the fixing points out as I could. The right hand side by the light switch I had to do this-

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That was the totally broken one and it was literally hanging off on that side so this was yesterdays quick fix, you don't really notice it much, it's fairly well out of the line of sight where it is.



Also got the radio wiring sorted, the fuse had gone causing memory loss of radio and infocentre and the courtesy light and fag lighter now work as well. I now gather that the switched live for the radio is not affected by the fuse and it was by virtue of this that I had managed to get it and the info centre and other stuff working at all. This fuse was my first port of call as I remember this fuse and its circuits from similar past issues with the blue one.

I also have wired in my radio switched live from the heater blower supply instead now so it comes on with 1st ignition position too-
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See, radio on but no voltmeter or dash lights :) No flatting the battery if sat listening to the radio :wink:

Thinking of radios, these came with it but are not wired in
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I have the other style of rear speakers in the blue one, procured from an M reg breaker a while back, I could fit those too and be fully loaded on OE speaker setups!
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:31 pm

So I was gonna start having a look at stripping the Saab down tomorrow night and Saturday, but then, this afternoon, disaster :badmood:


Ok, maybe disaster is slightly too strong a word, maybe 'pain in the arse setback' would be more appropriate...

The bloody alternator's packed up on the 480 :(

Driving to work this morning everything was normal, after leaving work and driving over to Coventry to see a mate I noticed the voltage was down a little but still higher with engine running than not, so still charging to some extent. Then, all of a sudden as I was leaving Coventry for home, the voltage started rapidly dropping until it was too low for the ignition and ECU and it spluttered to a stop. I have previously had bad voltage regulators and it is one of those parts that I have had a spare of for ages and luckily I had actually transferred it into the glovebox of the black one. Quickly swapped the regs over and got a jump but nothing. Not that it didn't start, I mean no charging :cryhard:

So hoping it was gonna be the reg again but obviously not, the slip rings look pretty knackered or I guess there could be some winding or rectifier fault but to to be honest I haven't got the time or the will to piss about with it so I think it's time to get a new one.

Just landed back home via recovery truck. Not cool. Not cool at all. So yeah, mission is to get and fit an alternator, the thought of which, although an easy job, has already started sapping my motivation for playing around with cars this weekend so I might give the Saab stripdown the elbow for another week.... Working on cars when you want to is fun, when you have to, not so much!

Happily, other than the alternator and the couple of little niggles I mentioned, the car's been lovely and the engine is sooooo sweet! All the TLC on the head definitely paid off, it's the best I've ever known it and don't forget I've owned this engine from a modest 60k. It's never sounded so nice, revved so willingly or pulled so hard and doesn't appear to have lost a drop of oil or water, just voltage :lol: And by the way, the way the gearchange feels with the less worn selector linkage in this car does go to show that forking out on the proper gear oil every so often really is worth it, I've done it four times now in my ownership and the box feels like new, slick and smooth as you like, I daresay I've got no worries there, should just go on and on.
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jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:34 pm

Was about to ask if you couldn't just take the one off the spare engine, then remembered the car came without engine.

I'm sure I'll be teaching my granny how to suck eggs, but have you checked voltage at the alternator?

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:02 pm

Yeah, I checked the voltage at the terminal on the alternator (incidentally, the older cars don't have the mega fuse in the charging circuit if that's what you were thinking of), checked it was grounding properly (had to add an earth strap to an alternator -terminal once because the body wasn't earthing well enough through the mountings or perhaps the rectifier not earthed properly to the body, either way...), obviously the new reg made no difference, it's toast. Confirmed by the fact that fitting a new one has cured the problem! I'm up and running again, GSF's main distribution depot branch in Brum had one in stock for collection so went and got it yesterday in borrowed vehicle, got back, fitted it, jumped it, drove it, happy days.

I've still got my old one so might do some investigation with the multimeter to try and see what exactly caused the failure, purely from an academic point of view, although if it's something I can fix, I might so I have a spare for the future, my 480 is a high mileage daily driver after all, not a dry days and high days car so cooking another alternator in the next couple of years is not out of the question, I think this is the third alternator I've fitted to it now, previous ones finally died of bearing failure, this is the first one that's died electrically for reasons other than the rectifier. Unfortunately my somewhat chequered history of driving convictions etc means that, at the relatively tender age of 27, I still can't realistically afford to insure two cars but I cannot be without 480! I guess the fact that you used to be an auto sparky could be helpful if I run out of testing knowledge before I find a fault! I'll let you know how I get on..... First port of call will be checking field coil impedance and seeing whether it's shorted to the rotor shaft or maybe open circuit, the slip rings don't look good.
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:10 pm

Had some delays in taking the engine out of the Saab so not quite ready to begin the real job yet but I have managed to get hold of a humungous BorgWarner turbo to go on it at some point :D Also got some nice stainless tube in readiness for fabbing an exhaust when the time comes. Black 480's been going well since the alternator went, almost due a service with no issues to report :) Got some manual boost control on the go as well, resulting in a bit of clutch slippage on higher gears when in 'lead foot' mode! Nice!

Soon as I get the engine out of the 9-3 I'll get some pics up of the first attempt to offer it into the blue 480 so you can all laugh at me when it doesn't fit :rofl:

Just haven't had time to start a 'non essential' project but I am itching to get going on it so hopefully will have some stuff to report soon.
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Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:34 pm

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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Should make the B204 capable of about 450-500hp :shock:

Maybe not straight away (I'd actually like to get the engine running in the 480 first) but couldn't turn it down, I got given it by a mate at work who'd bought about six of them in a 'surplus to requirements' sale at work for about £40. Needs an oil seal but mechanically sound. Ex Indycar turbo, pair of these feed a high revving V6 with about 30-40psi, making 700+hp. A more serious turbo I could not wish for and the B204's love a big old turbo. Eat your heart out Garret GT28's and Mitsubishi TD04's, this is Holset territory :)
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:43 pm

Ade wrote:Thinking of radios, these came with it but are not wired in
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I have the other style of rear speakers in the blue one, procured from an M reg breaker a while back, I could fit those too and be fully loaded on OE speaker setups!
Been meaning to ask.... Where do these ones fit?

You'll not be needing them of course, because once that turbo starts to spool it's going to sound like an Intercity 125! :shock:

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:08 pm

Like so-
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I never knew of these, I've only ever seen the type mounted in the panel like I got for my blue one a while back from a breaker, I think these are quite cool and would allow a fully OE 6 speaker setup, I'd have to nick the panels from the blue one for that though as this one doesn't have the panel mounted ones. As you say though, there's gonna be some pretty serious engine noise in the blue one and if I do fit that turbo at some point, extra speakers are gonna be the very last thing on my mind so perhaps I might have the six speaker setup in the *almost* standard black one.

Dunno whether they're any good, haven't wired them in and had a listen yet, not sure if they are a standard size for which a modern, high quality replacement drive unit could be obtained, need to look into that.

An Intercity 125... :rofl: It is a bit excessive, granted, but how much fun would a 400+hp 480 be?!? :) Kamikaze torque steer and a new set of front tyres every 300 miles. Let's see how it goes with standard hardware and the Stg2 tune first, should be quite a handful at around the 250bhp mark, never mind having that monstrous bloody thing charging it!
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:22 pm

Actually started taking the saab apart this evening, a momentous occasion indeed.

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pleased to have got the loom out engine bay side, was easier than expected so far, loom layout is very efficient as you can see which helps :)

the removal procedure will involve subframe coming off, no way round it and ultimately it will have to go into the 480 from below, or engine from above, gearbox below and attached with engine in situ and then subframe last. on the subframe front I've taken some better measurements now that I have more access and I think I'm happy that it's going to fit with some 'minor' modifications to the subframe in the 480. where the sump and gearbox hug the rails in the saab subframe is around 21" apart. There is this space available for the powertrain to hang low and hopefully clear the chassis rails in the 480 with only small sections needing to be cut out and boxed in, not needing to upset suspension geometry in any way. the main issue with the volvo subframe is the big tube across the front, the engine is going to have to use all the space available to it up front and so the sub frame will have to be extended and braced and the original tube removed and probably some new engine mountings fabricated as part of it too, further forward and the original mounting areas cut away and restrengthened to make room for the monster.
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:29 am

Carried on stripping the Saab last night after work-

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and then...

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We're cooking now...

Meant to get this far and call it a night but got carried away-

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First big piece of the puzzle...

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Definitely meant to call it a night now but carried on being carried away-

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Behold the first ever saab turbo engine destined for a 480 :)

By this point it's approaching 11pm and I really, finally did call it a night :lol:

Needs to go on a diet, bloody great heavy thing! Aircon can be the first and most obvious thing to go, should give me a bit more room too and possibly provide me with a mounting point more suitable for the 480, you can see the AC pump bottom left below the PAS pump, if this is removed and the aux belt laid out differently, I think this will lend itself to the installation nicely, a mounting bracket can be made that goes on in place of the pump and/or its existing bracket that will be in a good location for the 480.

Sexy though ain't it? :) Oozes quality and horsepower...

The rest of the gubbins and wiring are still in the 9-3, which is where I intend to leave it all until I'm ready for it as I'm sure it will be easier to get my head around it all if I'm transplanting straight from one car to the other rather that starting with a tangled mess of wiring and shit and not being able to remember how everything should go! This won't be quite as straightforward to get running standalone as a B18FT would be I think, having done the B18FT + jetronic transplant I can see why people like them as a conversion as the jetronic loom would be easy to hook up to run standalone, I think there's a little more involved with the B204 but hopefully will be ok, there's lots more under the dash and to fuse/relay boxes than with the jetronic, all doable though as it has been done plenty of times, just never in a 480!

Number one priority now is to get the subframe back on it and get it back on it's wheels and rolling so I can shove it out the way. Once that's done then it'll be a case of some further stripping back of the engine and gearbox and a bit of a cleanup to make them nicer to work with (I'm gonna be handling them a lot :lol: ) and then getting the 480 in the shop and stripping the engine bay out the rest of the way and removing the subframe. Then for the fun part... Once the engine and box are made to fit and mounted in the 480 (easier said than done, this is a way off yet) that will be the time to revisit the 9-3 to retrieve all the stuff to make it go :hopping:
O.C. 480 D.

ohdearme
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by ohdearme » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:31 pm

Loving the updates and photos, I feel like I am in the garage with you.
As I have only ever restored a car to normal spec, I have often wondered how you insure a vehicle which has been heavily modified? Do you go to a specialist provider and is it expensive. Just interested as next time I may be braver and do so mods.
Cheers Trevor
Red 480 ES Auto 1991
Bought 2016, hoping to use a weekend car in 2017
First classic car, learning a lot, but having fun

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:24 pm

Typically your go to a specialist broker; Declare all your modifications and they go off and quote you happy.

Sometimes It's bizarre, as I actually found it cheaper to insure my V70 daily driver after it was modified (big wheels, big brakes and an exhaust). :shock:

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:28 pm

Better answer than you'd have got from me! I've never had a car modified to this extent and TBH I've never declared any mods to insurance, just risked it for a biscuit for fear of £££££££££££££££££££££. Interesting that you got a cheaper quote on the V70 with mods. :eek:

I am curious what it will cost me to insure this thing, trying not to think about it yet! When the time comes it will be a happy day indeed (apart from the bill I expect) as it will mean the car is ready to hit the road :hopping: Long way off yet... still plodding along though.

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Subframe back on and rolling again, still need to put the bonnet on before it goes out in the yard and the volvo comes in but that is all there's left to do with it at this stage. All parts safely organised and stored and now in a good position to go forward.

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Two main parts ready for the next stage, the marriage between these and the 480 is getting steadily closer! There is going to be some serious cutting and fabricating I think but to what extent will not become clear until the first offering. Before this can happen the subframe will have to be removed from the 480 and, in all likelihood, the slam panel more or less totally cut out :nuts:

What exactly will be required for the subframe to fit remains to be seen... I feel that it will need the big tube across the front removing and the whole frame extending forwards, incorporating new engine mounting points. Room up front will be crucial here and it's gonna be tight. I need decent engine cooling, good intercooling and the engine also has an oil cooler (still in the 9-3) that needs to fit in there too! What have I got myself into... oh well, no turning back now is there :lol:
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:18 pm

It's a lot easier to insure a modified car than you'd think! (equally, don't get me started on people who are banned for drink driving, only to find their insurance cheaper after a ban! :angry: ).

It's really not worth being caught without "proper" insurance, as they'll null and void you, which will hurt for many, many years after, as you'll have to declare it to insurers (who'll punish you hard for lying to them). This isn't meant as a preach; Would you honestly know if your car had a Robu ECU? Sure it'd be quick, but until you had something stock to compare with, you could possibly think they were all like that. My V70 came with 19" volvo R wheels; Now, as a regular Joe, how would I know they weren't original? Well, as I've 15 odd years in the motor trade, it'd be a tad harder for me prove I didn't know! So imagine my surprise when going for modified cover when I casually asked how much extra it would add to the premium if I was to add big brakes and a stainless Exhaust, and was told a big fat zero pounds?

On the saab project, you may have to get an engineers report to say the conversion is sound - The daft part is that pretty much ANY engineering firm can write that.... Don't suppose you know any engineers? :rofl: One thing however, is that DVLA *may* grab you as a Radically altered Vehicle. Worth reading up on that NOW rather than later, but the worse thing is you'd be wearing a Q-plate or potentially have to pass a BIVA test.

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brinkie
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by brinkie » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:35 am

Nice job! If it's going to be too much trouble, ditch the power assisted steering as well. You can get a non-assisted steering rack out of a basic-spec 440 from a breakers yard.

I've just been reading https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/overview and what's on top of the page. "The government has published its plan for the UK leaving the EU."
So sad that the UK is leaving the EU, it cuts off our possibility to build kit cars, have them pass the Individual Vehicle Approval in the UK and subsequently have them approved anywhere in the EU by importing the car, since any EU country has to accept a car approved in another EU country. It is impossible to modify cars in some EU countries so that is why this construction is sometimes needed.
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i Vase Green, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum Mystic Silver
Past: 1981 Talbot-Matra Murena 2.2 Rouge Mephisto, 1995 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i Paris Blue

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brinkie
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by brinkie » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:47 am

Ade wrote:Should make the B204 capable of about 450-500hp :shock:
I would recommend converting the 480 to RWD or AWD then... 450 hp on the front wheels of a light car only gives you loads of tire smoke if you touch the accelerator with your little toe :rofl:

Also, are the 480 chassis and brakes capable of handling a considerable larger amount of power than the stock 120 bhp? I have previous experience with a car whose body structure was over-designed to accept a much bigger and more powerful engine, which never left the prototype stage with only 3 cars built. You can recognize the prototypes (2 are still surviving!) by the extra venting to prevent the brakes from overheating. There is a reason Volvo tuned the 1.7 Turbo back from 160-170 bhp to 120...
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i Vase Green, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum Mystic Silver
Past: 1981 Talbot-Matra Murena 2.2 Rouge Mephisto, 1995 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i Paris Blue

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:35 am

I intend to do something with the brakes once it's up and running, also, as part of the subframe mods I intend to stiffen it up a lot as well. Also looking at a strut brace as essential. The 400+HP is a long way off yet, not going for that big turbo straight away as it will require custom manifolds and huge injectors to make it worthwhile so that's a further stage for the future. RWD is better for big power I know but you can get an off the shelf LSD for the Saab box, along with some nice soft sticky tyres should be manageable.... Just!

To be honest, I don't care if it's a bit mental and a bit dangerous, that's half the fun to me :D
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Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:53 am

Or am I just dangerously mental??? :crazy:

Incidentally, thinking of traction, the Saab engine and box are quite a bit heavier than the Volvo powertrain so this will help.
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Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:29 am

Oh yeah, Jifflemon, thanks for the info, I hadn't thought that far ahead but I think a Q plate and the BIVA check are gonna be likely :(

Oh well, small stumbling block in a journey of mountains.....
O.C. 480 D.

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