My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

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AleksanderHugo
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by AleksanderHugo » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:39 pm

I am very curious about the outcome of this project :) Keep us updated and good luck!

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:11 pm

Me too :lol: Will do....
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Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:25 pm

Image
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:30 pm

Image
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Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:52 pm

So here's my first step in the weird and wonderful multivehicle project/nightmare that I've got going on! The beloved old blue turbo has had its engine removed, in all likelihood, never to return :cryhard:

I have made a start on removing the jetronic loom as well, as far back as the bulkhead. I'm going to finally disconnect everything from the loom inside the car on the day that it goes into the black one so that it's all fresh in my mind! I know the engine bay wiring well, I've taken the engine out before, but the more unfamiliar territory under the dash is best tackled all in one day, from one car straight into the other I think. Should make it easier. I'm gonna take some pics of the wiring as I go for my own reference but will post up helpful ones. I've already got pics of the engine bay side of the jetronic loom which I have labelled so I'll post these up as they may be helpful or of interest.
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:56 pm

Is a T4 swap going to be easier than Saab swap?

And I'll throw another one out there... Ph1 Laguna V6!

cranna21
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by cranna21 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:27 am

Hi Ade,

maybe a silly question but how did you get the engine loom removed from the bulk head? its just bit twist connectors am i correct? mine seem to be seized... unless im doing it wrong?
'91 480 ES 2.0l 16v 'Williams' Conversion - 212bhp/230nm
'90 940 GL 2.0l Estate
'08 XC90 D5 SE Premium

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:51 pm

you might be right about the t4/laguna v6 being easier but I'm just in love with Saab engines :D

Have been ever since I had my first 9K many years ago and I've been wanting to put a B204 turbo in a 480 for quite a while now...

As for the jetronic loom, there is no connector at the bulkhead, what you can see is simply a cable gland, I haven't quite got this far yet but it looks like the loom will have to be fed back into the car (there's no way the ecu plugs are gonna fit through the hole!) The big plastic nut just screws off the gland, not sure but I'm hoping the gland will push through the hole with the grommet and nut removed. I have been up there doing a bit more tonight after finishing work, exhaust is now off, car is back on all 4's (with some giant washers that I turned up at dinnertime clamping the wheel bearings with an M12 bolt so it can roll around without knackering them!) and I've got my head around the wiring inside the car, disconnected some of it (the obvious bits) and freed it all up, still to remove ecu's and actually feed the mass of wiring through the hole. I'll let you know how it goes...

Also ordered a new clutch kit (not too much wrong with the old one but the release bearing is noisy so fuck it, why not) and got a head gasket set on order too so I can whip the head off and do some porting/polishing. Gonna make a MBC and intercooler mister too, and lose the middle silencer from the exhaust. Now being used to my 250hp Saab, I need a more entertaining 480 to go back to whilst conversion and restoration are underway on the blue one! I already lightened the flywheel when I last did the clutch but I'm thinking about taking a little more off it and also replacing the steel crank/pas/waterpump pulleys with some super lightweight alloy ones of my own design. I'm gonna have a lot of after hours turning to do at work :lol: I'd better fire up solidworks and get busy modelling some of this stuff in a minute :)
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Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:06 pm

labelled photos of jetronic loom as promised, I've done as URL's because direct links seem to rescale/chop the photo which is no bloody good whatsoever for this!

Save the images and zoom to your hearts content!

[img][IMG]http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b43 ... w19zgt.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][IMG]http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b43 ... bhh4xp.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][IMG]http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b43 ... 5z3uub.jpg[/img][/img]
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:17 pm

Image

Image


there's been some progress this week, above we have my nicely machined (and considerably lighter) flywheel.

for anyone not familiar with the B18FT flywheel, that massive shiny groove you see in the back is NOT a standard feature :wink: I reckon I've taken a good kilo or so out of it.

I've also started designing my lightweight auxiliary pulleys, I have the crank one fully drawn up, here's the CAD model-

Image
Last edited by Ade on Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:11 pm

Does the crank pulley not have a harmonic balancer in it?

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:24 pm

no
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Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:25 pm

according to the CAD, in 2014T6 alloy (which is what I intend to make it from), this weighs a shade over 200g, less than half the weight of the stock item, and much sexier too I must say......

Add the water pump pulley, PAS pulley and maybe alternator (don't know whether it's really worth it on such a comparatively small diameter pulley attached to such a heavy rotating mass) this makes a worthwhile difference to total rotating mass, especially considering the weight loss from the flywheel too. I'm thinking that the engine should be noticeably more lively with all this in place.

I've started fixing various oily bits starting at the bottom with the sump

Image

Image

I have my new clutch kit, new rear main seal and got a head gasket set (hoping it comes with injector seals and cam shaft seals :? ), dizzy, arm and leads on order. There could be more to add to the shopping list.... I'm finding myself unable to hold back with the TLC on this beloved engine that has carried me around in the 480 for some 90,000 miles in my ownership, 150k total, I want it to be spot on for 1000's of miles to come in its new home so I can concentrate on what this thing is supposed to be all about, getting the saab engine into a 480, while having a solid, reliable, nice looking 480 to drive! Living the dream :wink:

Sorry for the sidetracking if people are keen to see the saab thing happen, it is coming people, I promise :)

I can't wait to get started myself, the saab's a nice car and I've enjoyed driving it around but I don't want to put it through a mot (would need exhaust fixing minimum, was ok when I bought it, i reckon the stg2 and my driving have blown off some sort of bandage or made a hole through some rust!) and I don't want to spend any money on it so it is almost time to take it apart, I've put about 2.5k miles on it so far with no engine issues, the running gear's good. Doesn't lose any fluids, the turbo seems healthy and I already have the unlocked ecu running in the car with the boost solenoid upgrade. I have everything I need to run that engine standalone, although there's still a few finer points like getting a suitable speed signal to the ecu for boost control in different gears and getting the instruments in the 480 working but to get up and running is not looking too bad I think. Doing this 480 project first has really helped me get to grips with what will need to go where with a different engine and management system in place. I am looking forward to having a 480 back on the road as well if I'm honest, I do miss it so I'm just trying to make sure I have a really nicely maintained one to be going on with as I'm sure this B18FT will go for 2-300k bottom end wise if the rest of it is well cared for and I figure a top end rebuild at 150k will secure its future for a long time to come. Then the real fun can begin.
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:23 pm

Frankly, it's better to have one sorted car and THEN a project, than 2 projects that are both getting you down.

I'm guessing you'll have the whole bottom end balanced with Pulley and flywheel in place?

Is there baffling in the sump as standard?

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:29 pm

Yeah, I'd agree with that, just want one well sorted car before all the 'surgery' begins! As for balancing, I'm not going that far, just got the flywheel balance checked and the pulley will be so light it's hardly worth bothering with, also, given it will be made from a billet (ie homogenous material properties all the way through, not like a casting), if it's made accurately enough (which it will be, I don't fuck about when it comes to accuracy, can't in my line of work :wink: ) then it will be inherently well balanced anyway.

There has been some more progress in the past couple of weeks-

got the head off

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stripped it down

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cleaned it and skimmed it

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fettled the ports and opened up a better flow path around the back of the valve seats, there was quite a ridge in the casting just by the seats which is now removed and blended

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sorted out the valve clearances, managed to get 5 by swapping shims around and the remaining 3 were requiring smaller shims, not bigger so was able to grind them down to the right size :D

Image

reassembled the head, I lapped the valves in too, obviously before sorting the valve clearances and cleaned the valves up in the lathe with some extra attention lavished on polishing the back of the inlet valves

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got the head back on the block with a nice new head gasket, following the 3,465 steps required to torque the head bolts :) (5 steps actually, felt like it took a long time though, never come across one where you have to slack them off again during the procedure, oh well, you live and learn!)

bolted some more bits back on

Image


and now it's almost ready to go in the car, just need to attach the flywheel, clutch and gearbox and I'm in business :hopping:

Oh yeah, as for injector seals, the set didn't include them :angry:

However, it just so happens that I was able to find some over in the build shop at work that are normally fitted to the Chevy indycar V6 which are the same size :D The valve spring seats were remarkably similar too, just needed boring out a little so you just know there's a set of those in there as well :wink: talk about over specced for the application :lol:
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:49 am

I hope you've got a new starter on your list of stuff to fit! Better safe than covered in gearbox oil and going :wall:

Other than that, it's looking really good - every so slightly envious of your facilities. I've a V6 engine I need to do the shims on, but its too damn cold and dark in the shed to even consider going out there!

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:09 pm

Thanks dude! It is nice having my own unit and working at a place like Ilmor (even more so as the senior management and directors are always totally cool with people working on their own stuff out of hours, almost to the point of encouraging it), means there's not much I can't tackle. It hasn't always been this way mind you, I've done plenty of 'roughing it' mechanicing in my time as well so I know what it's like!

I wasn't going to bother with a new starter as the one I have is good, the brushes are sound and the solenoid is recent so I think I'm ok there, good point though, starter is not fun to do on the turbo. Like, really really not fun :badmood: :angry: :wall: :badmood: :eek: :kill:

Today I have received, shall we say, some 'motivation' to get this car done and start ripping that saab to pieces.....

Got in the Saab to go to work this morning, started it up, no indicators, no windows and no wipers. Odd, I thought to myself, perhaps they share a fuse. Thought 'sod it', I'll get to work and have a look later on. Lo and behold, gets a couple of miles down the road and the bastard dies on me and wouldn't restart. Got taken to work on the back of a recovery truck :badmood:

Turns out (discovered during my lunchbreak, which was spent with screwdrivers and a multimeter instead of a nice sandwich :angry: ) that the ignition switch had gone a bollock and the return spring was not flicking the key back from the start position, hence some electrical things not working (I guess they switch out when key is turned to 'start' position) and a knackered starter motor as the thing must have been still engaged as I drove off and I assume it mechanically stalled the engine (it cut out the first time I stopped and obviously wouldn't restart because it was FUBARed, unbeknownst to me at the time). Managed to get it going with a push from some of the lads after work but that still leaves me needing a starter motor for it, minimum. Ideally a new ignition switch but I'll be fucked if I'm spending more than I have to on it so I can feel a couple of maplins switches coming on...... Or maybe even just some bare wires that I touch together :)

I'm currently 'enjoying' the ford ranger pickup from work that no one ever uses unless they're in the shit or needing to tow something heavy, and the saab is sat in the car park at work with the centre console ripped to bits (for those of you unfamiliar with saabs, the ignition barrel is down by the gear selector and locks it in reverse rather than having a steering lock, just in case you were thinking 'WTF')

So yeah, I need this 480 back in my life and I need to have the only 'proper' bit of the Saab (the engine) and get rid of all the GM shite that has made my day bleeding miserable! I knew I hated Vauxhalls for a good reason. Worst thing that ever happened to Saab, never had anything like this with my 9000's even at intergalactic mileages, this sorry heap of shit has only done 147k, should be nothing for a Saab. Anyway, rant over, I'm going to now indulge in a much needed rum and coke and a chinese takeaway!
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jifflemon
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:32 pm

Ade wrote:Thanks dude! It is nice having my own unit and working at a place like Ilmor (even more so as the senior management and directors are always totally cool with people working on their own stuff out of hours, almost to the point of encouraging it), means there's not much I can't tackle.
Sounds like a good place - I was equally encouraged in my apprenticeship to the do the same; The thinking from the bosses part is that if you cock up and make a mistake, you suffer; not the customer. "Learning experiences" are absolutely vital to make the best workers.

Just one final thought on the starter..... Peace of mind for £23?

Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:57 pm

That's a good point, also, I think it helps that being a purely motorsport based company, most of us who work there are big petrol heads and so everybody takes an interest in everybody elses little projects. We often spend far longer than we probably should chatting cars with lots of people, even the senior managers! We're all on the same wavelength and we'll all help each other out depending on who's expertise is most likely to be of value, which is good :) I run the toolroom so anybody wanting machining tends to come to see me and I'll do it or give it to one of my apprentices as a 'training job' :wink: and then if I need say, an expert in electronics, I can go and call in the favour. I currently have one such favour called in actually, I'm having a new injector wiring harness made up as the original one is, to put it mildly, past its best. Thinking of electronics, I reckon my CEM's need to pay a visit to the electronics department at some point too...... this could be fruitful! (hopefully, I know the guys have the expertise to probably design a whole new one, never mind mending one but I guess I might have to buy them some beers if they have to spend too long messing about with it!)

Got a week booked off work coming up at the end of this month so I can really kick some ass getting this car built and on the road so hopefully it won't be too long now before the stripdown of the Saab gets underway. Incidentally, the Saab is now running again thanks to a new starter and a push switch replacing the 'flick' on the ignition barrel (don't want it sticking and keeping the starter engaged again, the one I took off was not in a good way having been running at several times engine speed for about ten minutes! No wonder it stalled the engine when I came to a stop and dumped the clutch, the motor was almost seized solid :shock: )
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Ade
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:15 pm

Right, been making some progress the last couple of days despite a couple of setbacks thanks to a midnight stint after work on friday and a full day on it yesterday....

Got the engine off the stand and after fitting my new crank seal, fitted the flywheel
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and the clutch...
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it was a this point I had my first setback. You know when you put something in a little bag and put it somewhere 'safe' :tomato: anyway, do you think I could find the dowels (well, not really dowels, more shitty, thin roll pins) for the clutch cover location on the flywheel? I looked everywhere and no joy, my best guess is that they're at work somewhere as this is where I removed them for the machining of the flywheel (bear in mind this is like 7.30pm on a friday and the place is locked up for the weekend, no night shift so no wandering in and out for stuff or to use the machines). So here I am, gutted but determined. As I said, the previous article was a little shoddy anyway so I thought I'd have a shot at finding something the right size to make three dowels from and I got lucky. The holes were a fairly good 6mm, not the worst size to work with and I quickly laid eyes upon a mounted point (you know, a little grinding wheel on a shank that people normally use in drills, die grinders etc) with, you guessed it, an accurate enough 6mm shank :hopping:

After sawing it into 3 pieces and cleaning them up on the grinder I had myself some nice little dowels. They weren't a perfect fit in the flywheel, not quite interference but a more than good enough location, the saving grace being that the holes in the clutch cover, being a fraction smaller and perhaps not quite so thoroughly deburred, held them fast once bolted up. A little loctite retaining compound added peace of mind.


Happy with my progress I now bolted the gearbox on only to realise a major problem.... The clutch fork was running out of travel before the release bearing really began to disengage the clutch :badmood:

At first my thoughts wildly went towards the machining of the flywheel but then I thought, no, can't possibly attribute this to maybe 0.5mm off the drive surface of the flywheel and then I noticed this and removed the box again to get a better look
Image

see what's left of the little plastic bush that's perched on the end of the input shaft? Well, that normally lives on the boss which acts as the pivot point for the fork and as you can see, is totally knackered, thus changing the pivot point to a point too far away from the clutch to be effective. It didn't take long for it to dawn on me that this was the hidden demon that had always made my clutch feel generally shit and heavy and possibly the reason why I have gotten through three clutch cables and had to make a stronger replacement clevis to attach it to the pedal during the time I have owned this car. When I last fitted a clutch to the car around 40k ago I didn't notice any problem like this but the feel, although loads better than the original, still wasn't what you'd call perfect. About 10k into the new clutch the old cable failed and I got one off glasgowjim. When I fitted this cable, the clutch was transformed and I was well happy but it has deteriorated again with the subsequent 30k, jims cable failing because of a heavier action about 20k in. It was at this point I actually embarked upon finding out how to make proper control cables and ended up manufacturing one strong enough to cope with the mysterious heavier clutch action. This involved custom made dies squeezing 50t onto EN24T cable ends (with chemical retainer on the cable too) to stop them being able to part company. Incidentally, my original pedal clevis failed ages ago not long after I had the car and I knocked up a nice replacement part intended never to break, I daresay if I had replaced it like for like, I'd have got through an eye watering quantity of them by now! Given that I seem to have succeeded in making an indestructible clutch actuation system for the 480 (my work still sits in the blue one, both clevis and cable, having never given up despite this appalling flaw in the system) and these parts are difficult/impossible to get, if anyone is in need of such items, something could possibly be arranged. The materials are readily available and cost around £20 for a RHD length cable. I would consider making a batch if there was enough interest. I can make a clevis if needed too for a nominal fee. I have some pictures somewhere, I'll get them up when I get a chance, they are nice looking parts and vastly superior in quality to the OE, albeit apparently unnecessary in a car with a good pivot bush thingy! It appears that my fork, after a certain point, ceased to pivot on the bushing and began to pivot on the bolt above it, thus changing the leverage ratio part way through the stroke, getting gradually worse as it wore further back from the clutch cover, hence the gradual return of a shitty, heavy clutch as time went by, this time attributable to this thing rather than the cable being in a bad way. Maybe the extra 0.5 or so added to the previous skim of about 1mm to take away the distortion on the first clutch change, added to the last 40k of wear on the bush just tipped the balance to the point of being a real noticeable problem with the assembly.

Again, I had to set out to devise a credible solution to this problem without access to machine tools, or else suffer a week setback. I do own a small lathe but it's currently in bits at work awaiting something of a refurb (like that's ever gonna happen while I own 480's :lol: )

I found a bit of 20mm ally bar, squared the end up on the grinder and marked out the centre with my trusty old starrett combination set
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Managed to drill a hole reasonably central up it by hand, gradually opening it up to my first stop, 9mm. At this point I ran an M10x1 tap down it as a means of 'workholding' true to my hole, stuck the shank of the tap in a drill and worked it on the grinding wheel until it looked something like this
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This was not a quick process. What would have taken minutes on a lathe took some 2-3hrs by this method but I was reasonably happy with the result. I enlarged the hole out to the required 13, pinched it slightly oval in the vice, hammered it home and refitted the box
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She was a dream ;)

That concluded friday evening.


Saturday morning started well
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Got it bolted in
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Added some wiring
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putting the loom through the bulkhead wasn't fun

Shoved a few more bits into place and importantly got at least the return fuel line sorted and plumbed in (still need to make a fitting for the supply and connect it under the car)
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that was the last photo of the day, I did a bit more poking around but nothing much really, got tidied up and squared away ready for the next session! It's getting closer now, the first turn of the key :hopping: :hopping:

Can't wait to fire this thing up and drive it, just hope that it is :hopping: on the first turn of the key and not :tomato:

:lol:
O.C. 480 D.

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