My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

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Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:19 pm

Good point about the column, will need to check that...

Bad news on the sump mod front-
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Oil pump is eccentric rotor type and is fed from the end of the sump that needs the chop :wall:

May still be able to do something with it but won't be straightforward by any means :badmood:

Need to sleep on this one....
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:00 am

Not good about the sump. :(

for height though you might be able to lift the engine up a thochty and 'panel beat' a bit of front chassis leg?

I know you said need to lower engine to clear bonnet, but maybe remove some of inner reinforcing from bonnet to gain 10mm in a small area where cam shaft-cover is, then also raise the back of bonnet up about 15-20mm and just extend the edges downwards? I reckon you could flatten out the flare edge next to screen just for last 100mm so less obvious where meets the front pillar. or take all the flare off so even less obvious :wink:

As the bonnet is a wrap down it should be better looking than adding a 'power bulge' ? and GRP is easier to edit than steel . . . ..
Alan

480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:30 pm

I think you're onto something there mate, I've been toying with the idea of totally re engineering the oil feed but the way I would have to do it would mean a much more convoluted and longer oil pickup tube that would come across to the side and then up around the top before entering the oil pickup hole from the side higher up and I'd be worried about momentary oil starvation on startup. I thought a way around this may be to have my ignition on a switch to allow an 'oil circulation' cranking period before firing but this is a bit naff really, plus a massive amount of work just on the sump so I'm definitely leaning towards leaving it as is and finding my room by perhaps lifting the bonnet slightly or cutting a bit of the rib out and a wee bit of modification to the chassis rail and maybe spacing the subframe just a tad more than would have been necessary with a chopped sump. My next move is going to be getting the subframe off, making some new bushes for it that will space it down about 25mm (bit more than I would have liked but I think this is a good starting point, it can always be fine tuned later) and then offering in engine and gearbox and trying to refit the subframe on its spacers. I'll really know where I stand then and if I can mount it up, even if it's gonna stick up a bit more than I'd like, I will, as long as it's not an unreasonable and unmanageable amount of bonnet tinkering that will be required. Such a tall engine in such a sleek car... :wall: It's far too easy for those depraved nutters that put these things in Vauxhalls... Bit like the Renault 5 mob with our B18FT's. Gits. Couldn't do something a bit more creative... :lol: Bolt together's no fun ;)
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:03 pm

Ade

just to be clear I was suggesting raising ONLY REAR edge, hopefully leaves the front meeting the existing slam panel so not obvious (with a wedge) to make sure the catch DISENGAGES, you don't want it to stay closed, been there with a car and ruddy nightmare to release a catch where the wire snapped . . . .

aye a wee bit of cutting/welding on sub-frame might just give enough clearance and you can then lift engine up as afr as you can to minimise offsetting subframe downwards.

Ref bushes, i changed the whole arms, it came with bushes for about same price as the bushes were!

PS not sure why they don't use a renault 21 or similar? for their 'big engine' source into 5
Alan

480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:44 pm

Got the subframe off the 480 earlier-
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Those bushes are not wanting to shift... need to make an extractor tool, I'd like to get them out intact if at all possible as I'm not sure you can get these anymore and I wouldn't mind keeping them rather than destroying them.

I will make some new bushes that incorporate the necessary spacing, probably including some nylon in there to give a little softening but it will be effectively hard mounted. Along with some reinforcement of the subframe, this should make the car much more rigid.


I lowered the engine in from above all the way through to the floor and resting it on some wood, managed to fit the gearbox to it underneath the car :badmood: :angry: there was some bad language involved...

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after some more swearing it actually looked promising apart from this

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diff casing is a bit too cosy with the steering rack... granted, it's not actually in place properly because there's no subframe but it's hanging somewhere close and it doesn't look great. Still lots to think about, the angular inclination of the engine being an important one along with starting to get the geometry of the powertrain installation dialed in. Another job that's starting to become important is to devise some temporary, adjustable mountings for the engine and box so I can really fine tune the position before making any permanent mounting decisions. Space is so tight I think it will be beneficial to expend extra effort in the early phases of the build getting the position optimised for all that is to follow. I also want to be careful with centre of gravity and weight distribution as much as possible because of the weight of this engine. Accurate and careful positioning before mounting I think is essential and may help lessen or prevent other headaches, I think it's leaning too far forwards here, throttle body needs to go back towards the scuttle and crankshaft and driveline axes need to come forward. There's gonna be lots of fiddling about with position to come...

Gonna be interesting offering the subframe back up under this... :)
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:59 pm

Knocked up some fixturing to help me with final positioning of the engine and to allow me to do a mock assembly with the subframe before anything permanent happens.

Here's the gearbox side-
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The wood is what you might call an insurance policy, the other end is wedged against the exhaust manifold :lol: If you imagine the way the force is applied to the jig by the weight supported by it, you should notice that it will have the tendency to undo the bolt buried down in the bottom of the hex bar attached to the box... :? :eek:

Here's engine side-
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The engine and box can now hang from the chassis on these adjustable jigs to allow me a) to fine tune the position and b) to actually have the engine and box held steady and firm in position rather than floating in midair. This will be essential for mocking up. I haven't yet sorted a similar deal for the rear mounting position but the two hanging from the chassis at the front and the crane holding the back up is solid enough for mock up assembly.

I half heartedly offered the subframe up (it was getting late but I couldn't resist a quick try), didn't get close... it stopped short on the gearbox casing, won't need a massive amount nibbling out of it to clear though by the look of it which is good. Rack and diff casing interference is still looking like a problem but I think I may be able to machine a small section out of the casting without really compromising it that should hopefully give me the room I need.

Considering the possibility of coming forward a tad more at the cost of making a small cutout just behind the headlight in the slam panel which will allow the PAS pulley and hence the whole thing (the PAS pulley is what's stopping it) to move another 1" or so forward, alternatively lose the PAS. Not decided yet... Defo gonna have to make some slam panel cutouts anyway for turbo and coolant plumbing, I need some holes :) Should be able to leave most of it intact on the gearbox side though.

I've also been erring towards the idea of putting the two front mounts to the chassis rails rather than the subframe, this is seeming a potentially more elegant solution and actually keeps with the way it was mounted in the 9-3, this fashion seems to suit the layout better and also means easier assembly as engine and box must go in before subframe and it would be handy to have 2/3 mounts in place before fitting the subframe, nightmare otherwise. I imagine keeping the stock rear engine mounting point on the subframe but obviously with a custom bracket to suit. Sorting the rear mount and getting the diff to clear the rack will be a bitch, room is extra tight around here.

Need to decide on final position, mark out the tight spots, start cutting stuff and making stuff until I can fit it together :)

To be continued...
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:21 pm

Identified some potential candidates for front engine mounts... liking the look of these-

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These are the front mounts from a Honda Integra Type R and I reckon they'd be perfect hanging down from the chassis rails, not too wide, should sit in the Volvo nicely. I'd have to beef the rails up a bit in the mounting areas but that easily accomplished with some 2-3mm steel plate welded over them to add stiffness and strength. Holes can be drilled vertically through the rails with a bigger hole at the top, allowing the insertion of a spacer so the clamping force doesn't squash the rail (bit like what you do when attaching a towbar). I'm liking this as a mounting strategy as it will be nice and easy, keep with the Saab layout (thus suiting the layout well) and also if I ensure that, if anything, I'm a bit high, they can always be shimmed down to adjust height very easily. Bonus that they're cheap and easily available too :hopping: Gonna get some of these on order ASAP.
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:51 pm

Had a look at one of the aforementioned mounts and turns out no good :( Too far between hole centres to comfortably go where I want them so onto plan B...

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Make my own :)



Made a start on the housings-

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And there was no cheating with fancy CNC's, Bridgeport and 4 jaw all the way :wink:

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Just need to add the chamfers and tapped holes and then turn the inner parts. Once I've done this I can make up a fixture to hold the two parts in the correct positions and then cast the polyurethane between the two, leave for a week (well, demould in 24h but a week to fully cure) and then I'll have my mounts :hopping: I'll then make up some more bits and pieces and get them bolted into the car.


I've also been looking at the subframe, made a crude but effective extractor tool for the bushes-
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These bushes are an absolute bastard to shift, I guess it's a good thing that generally, you'd never need to. Got two of the four out thus far and it now looks like this-
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I've now been able to take some measurements and start designing the new spacer bushes, these will be the next thing on the list to get done once I have my mounts curing.

I am also developing my strategy for the cutouts that need to be put in the subframe, hopefully should be quite straightforward. I'm gonna get it blasted and fully seam weld the whole thing once I've finished modding it as necessary. This will be a ball aching amount of welding (gonna go TIG rather than MIG, will take longer but will be a much nicer job) but hopefully worthwhile for strength and rigidity.

Also made the decision that the PAS is going. I need the room and extra weight loss can't hurt.

I've got the original Saab mounting brackets at work with me now too so I can measure up the hole positions and geometry, then I can start modelling up my new mounting brackets. Once the mounts are cured and bolted to the chassis rails, I can take my final measurements and finalise the geometry of my brackets accordingly.

It's slowly starting to come together.... :)
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:53 am

I'd like to try re-doing the front bushes on the C30 (as only lasted 40k and I'll maybe try that 'polycraft' stuff? :wink:
Alan

480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:41 pm

I've never used this stuff before but I understand that this is the stuff to use for making proper polyurethane parts yourself. This is a slower curing one, which was recommended by someone at work who has played around with it quite a bit. I decided that the 80 shore would be the one for me but different hardnesses are available so you'd have to choose according to what characteristics you want it to have on the car.

Would you be looking to remould the original ones or make entirely new? Can't you get an 'off the shelf' polybush kit for a C30? Surely...
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:48 pm

Cracked on with the mounts today, got all the bits made-
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Housings, inner sleeves and caps for the moulding and location of the inner sleeve centrally and at the correct height.

Here they are assembled-
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Applied release agent to the caps-
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Reassembled, mixed the goo and poured-
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Can't wait to see how they turn out.... Says on the bottle it cures amber in colour, I'll believe it when I see it :lol:

ps. For those eagle eyed readers out there, I know the chamfers on the finished parts are different to the drawing. Let's just say the design 'evolved' as it went along.....
O.C. 480 D.

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Alan 480 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:53 am

Ade wrote:I've never used this stuff before but I understand that this is the stuff to use for making proper polyurethane parts yourself. This is a slower curing one, which was recommended by someone at work who has played around with it quite a bit. I decided that the 80 shore would be the one for me but different hardnesses are available so you'd have to choose according to what characteristics you want it to have on the car.

Would you be looking to remould the original ones or make entirely new? Can't you get an 'off the shelf' polybush kit for a C30? Surely...
you can get bushes, but TBH the cost of correct (or PU) bushes was about the same as the complete wishbone!

so I thought I'd recycle the old wishbones given the short life that the standard bushes have < 40k :(

as in I'll remove all loose rubber debris and top-up with PU!!
Alan

480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Tue May 02, 2017 4:17 pm

I guess you could try that, nothing to lose is there. On the project front, it hasn't stalled but has been going a bit more slowly of late, it's been pretty full on at work and I haven't been feeling great either the past week or two so not done much. The mounts are nicely cured now, although they haven't yet taken on the correct colour :?

I was extremely scrupulous in ensuring the mix ratio was correct (10:1 by weight, used super accurate scales, tared the weight of the container, poured in 200g, tared again and poured in 20g of the other part so mix ratio should be spot on) and also was careful to observe temperature and mixing requisites so not quite sure what's gone wrong but the material seems good, it's just the wrong colour. I'm not gonna worry about it now, they'll do and if there is a problem down the line, I can get rid of it (probably burn it out is easiest I think, then clean the ally bits up again) and recast.

Also got my hands on a soda blaster off a mate at work :D Should make life a bit easier when I start on the subframe modding and welding if it's nice and clean. Still deciding on the best design for my new subframe bushes as well, I have procrastinated long over this, justifiably though I think, they need to be right. I think I've got a concept that I'm happy with so need to finalise the design and then start cutting some metal! It'll be a relief once it's mounted and the subframe fits, should all start coming together nicely then.... Now need to find the will to yet again remove the engine and gearbox from the bay so I can get my front mounts bolted in. You would not believe how many times it's been in and out so far and it's not even mounted yet :lol:
O.C. 480 D.

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Fri May 12, 2017 9:30 pm

Got a bit more done on the project today after work, needed a kick start, haven't touched it for a little while now.

Decided it would be a good idea to get the engine and box out again, now that I know roughly where I stand with it and get my new mounts bolted in.

I made some clamping spacers to go inside the box section of the chassis rails, sized to allow a little squish of the rail before clamping tight to keep everything as solid as possible. The top spacers are not ideal but had to be included because of the length of the bolts I was able to find, ultimately I will get some shorter bolts and replace the upper spacers with a single plate with counterbored holes for the cap screws but this will get me up and running-
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Carefully marked out and drilled the holes-
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Large hole at the top to allow the insertion of the spacer, small hole at the bottom so the spacer clamps to it


Got them bolted in and this is how they look-
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Got a bit of squish and there'll be some stretch in the bolts too because of the length of them so should be safe as houses, just hope the rubber is good...

Next step is brackets for the front of the engine and gearbox, I'll make the two halves of each bracket but not weld them together until I have my final position absolutely sorted. I know where I am within a fairly small margin of error but I don't want to finalise it until the time is right.

Lots of work to do on the engine, gearbox and subframe too, PAS needs to go and aux belt needs sorting out not to mention loads of other stuff, subframe bushes need sorting as well as bits cutting out of it and I need to start thinking about the looming problem of a rear mount and whether the steering rack will fit and so much other stuff too, long road ahead...

Nice having these lying around to play with though-
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A fine pair of engines
:D :crazy: :D :crazy:
O.C. 480 D.

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by jifflemon » Fri May 12, 2017 10:22 pm

Could the two top spaces not be one long spacer to help spread the squish?

Ade
Can tell where the 480 was built
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm
Location: Northants

Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by Ade » Fri May 12, 2017 11:03 pm

Ade wrote:shorter bolts and replace the upper spacers with a single plate with counterbored holes for the cap screws but this will get me up and running-
Way ahead of you ;)
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nixell
480 Newbie
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Re: My second 480...... project 'sleeper'

Post by nixell » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:17 am

Is this project still on the agenda? We're waiting for the Saab 480 Turbo monster :D
'92 480 Turbo Graphite Grey
'03 S60R Barents Blue
'20 BMW 320d Xdrive

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