Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

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davekit
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by davekit » Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:47 pm

I'll have a look at those when I've a bit more time, thanks. The supplier that listed the correct numbers, but unavailable....If you click on the number for more details, it says they are Chrysler Jeep parts! Likewise the later sensors. Strange!

davekit
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by davekit » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:59 pm

Now I've fried my brains getting through the information, I'm pretty certain that the car has the wrong sensors fitted. I believe the early cars had PTC sensors (290 ohms), and the later cars had NTC sensors (2500 ohms). Mine should have the PTC sensors, and I've yet to find any for Volvo. Thinking about it, I would suggest that any PTC sensor would be an improvement over NTC sensors, at least the curve would go the right way!

I've tried to find equivalent Renault sensors. Renault 21 looks the most likely, as they were introduced in 1986, so may well have started with PTC sensors. The Renault engine code is F3N for the injected 1721cc, and looks equivalent to Volvo B18E, although power output varies. Renault 19 was introduced in 1989, so likely had NTC sensors from the off, and other models don't seem to fit the bill for various reasons. Probably the 440s and 460s never had PTC sensors either as they were late to the party.

There are certainly sensors on ebay which are described as PTC, but I've yet to find Renault or any other make which might be suitable. I've sent off a few enquiries, but they have either come back negative or I'm still waiting. I can't be the only person that needs these, can I? I will have to get the old ones off the car and check characteristics and threads, to see if I can find a match.

jifflemon
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by jifflemon » Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:23 pm

1721cc was fitted to the super5, which potentially sits in the right era - 85-94.

davekit
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by davekit » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:42 am

I've tried to make sense of the some of the similar-sounding makes of electric equipment on our cars.
Bendix is an long-established American company who make electrical equipment for aeronautical and automotive applications as well as washing machines and other domestic appliances; the parent company is Honeywell. The ECU on my 480 is labelled Bendix.
Renix was a tie up between Renault and Bendix to make electrical components for cars. Sensors and other parts on my 480 are marked Renix.
Fenix is a name I can only find in the Haynes manual, in relation to the engine management system. Is this a typo?

I've removed the air & coolant temperature sensors from the car and the full characteristics are:
Air temp - Renix Made in France 88-235 1537-1 blue. 2900 ohm @ 18deg, falling to 1000 ohm @ 60deg, 20mm push fit.
Coolant temp - Renix Made in France 1430-1 024-90 brown. 3800 ohm @ 18deg, falling to 1000 ohm @ 60deg, 12x1.5mm thread.

Quite definitely, these are NTC items, though the starting resistances are a bit high according to Haynes (2500 ohm @ 20deg). I've not been able to relate the numbers to anything, least of all the Volvo part numbers. Nor can I find any PTC items for Volvo or Renault, or any way of cross referencing them to any other brand. PTC items should be about 290 ohm @ 20deg, rising to 390 ohm @ 80deg. I would hope that any PTC item would be an improvement. PTC air sensors are pretty non-existent, but coolant sensors are available, mostly for Citroen and Peugeot. Unfortunately these have 14x1.25mm threads or even NPT imperial threads!

My latest idea is to simply wire in 300 ohm resistors in place of the sensors. At least the resistance would be in the right area, though the temperature dependence is lost (but not going the wrong way!). Any comments on the advisability of this?

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jamescarruthers
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:05 am

I wouldn’t waste your time with substituting in resistors. The resistances of your sensors are so out of range that the ECU will ignore them and use default values— hence you’re rough running.

Have you tried calling a Renault dealer to ask if they have the part number I recommended in an earlier post? Sorry, I’m abroad at the moment or I would have done it myself.

Also, what is the part number of your ECU? We need to make 100% sure you are meant to have the early black bodied sensors.

Renix has an “R” to do with Renault and Bendix; no idea what the “F” stands for in Fenix but it’s not a typo, that is really what it is called! They were very interchangeable in the early years as it’s basically a Renault system. It eventually all got eaten up in to Siemens. Chronologically ECUs are named Renix, Fenix and then Siemens— our Turbo cousins went with a completely different Bosch system.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

davekit
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by davekit » Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:40 pm

Thanks again James. I called a Renault dealer with that part number, and it was NLA, so no joy again. I'll try Hella next. The 1721cc engine also went in the Renault 9/11, certainly in carb form (type F2N) and possibly in injected form (type F3N) too. It was a well used lump, if we could only cross reference all the part numbers, we might yet find our PTC sensors. I also looked at the other references you gave me which gave the Renault number and Hella number, but the translation from Russian(!) did not always read too well. Pity a Russian trying to find a sensor for a Renault 21, especially at the moment.

I assume the ECU is the box under the side panel in the righthand footwell. This is embossed 'Bendix' and has a small label with '90190' on it, and a larger label with 'Bendix Made in France' and 'S101290101E' under a barcode and '436507' on it. These are all visible with the box in situ, so I have not tried to remove it to see what may be on the other side. None of these numbers match what I assume is the ECU in the parts list (#1 p203), which for my chassis should be 9031281-0.

Maybe the 'F' in Fenix is for French?!?!?

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jamescarruthers
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Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by jamescarruthers » Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:45 pm

My car has the same S101290101E ECU installed so I guess we can be sure that you do require black sensors.

What a shame someone has probably put your perfectly good sensors in the bin and put the blue ones in.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by jamescarruthers » Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:34 pm

Not that it’s possible to get them, but it looks like the Renault part number for the black bodied intake air temperature sensor is 7700731057

Image
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by jamescarruthers » Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:07 pm

Hey Dave,

I had a bit of trouble with my own car today and ended up taking out the engine coolant temperature sensor and boiling it in a pan of water and did indeed start at around 290 Ohms and increase with temperature. I have ran with a later sensor installed and it doesn't run right-- you loose the cold idle RPM increase and its rich as hell but that could be the ECU using "default values".

You however seem to have both the wrong coolant temperature sensor and the wrong inlet air temperature sensor. Is that still true?

I may be able to help you out with an air intake sensor, but not with a the coolant temperature sensor.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

davekit
480 Newbie
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 14, 2022 11:16 am
Location: Bradford, West Yorks

Re: Recommissioning a 480: 9. Final Bits

Post by davekit » Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:44 am

Hi James
I've not changed the sensors, so they are still NTC type. Since the middle of the year, I've not been in a position to do much to the car, as a series of health issues culminated in two operations in November. This has left me at something of a low ebb. I am hoping that David Walker can take the car in January for some tlc, and get it back to top condition, as I don't feel capable of doing it at present. It's too good a car to simply abandon.

The sensor issue may only be resolved by swapping in two PTC types and seeing what effect they have. Even then some other adjustments could be needed, eg the CO potentiometer. It is probably not a good idea to have one PTC and one NTC sensor, as that would likely only confuse the ECU. Maybe David has some PTC sensors which could be tried, even doing a temporary swap from another car? If running deteriorated, at least we could be sure that the NTC sensors were correct, and we could look elsewhere to improve running.

Hope you managed to resolve the problem with your car. ATB - Dave

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