Volvo 480 Club Europe

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:38 am**

Petrol in the UK will soon be watered down by the introduction of E10 fuel, no doubt the opportunity will also be taken to apply a "green" tax to everything else.

Luckily it would appear the 480 will run E10 but I am just curious on the fuel consumption and storage issues,

I know that when unleaded was introduced by using LRP the consumption in my MG increased from 24 to 18mpg The car also run so much better on leaded so that is what I continued to use. The cost difference was offset against the better mpg.

Have any you tried E10 long term in an older vehicle and if so are there any noticeable differences. I am thinking general running, engine temperature and pick up, not racing.

The other problem with the then new unleaded fuel was the poor shelf life, I had great fun in disposing of 10 gallons of stale fuel from an Invader that sat for two weeks.

Given Ethanol appears to love water is this a real problem in vehicles that are not used on a regular basis, or are all of the above scare mongering to try to generate sales of new cars.

Regards

E

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:02 am**

Hi Espada,

Firstly, not sure how an increase can be from 24 to 18mpg, unless you meant that the other way around?

Personally I am planning to run E5 in mine where I can, though I have a dreadful feeling forecourts are going to put the price up because they can and older cars need it. While the 480 is cleared for E10, I am going to be holding off for the time being until we can see what is happening with the situation.

It is curious what you say about the shelf life of unleaded, our ur-quattro spends half the year in the garage, and when we start it up the fuel we put in it 4 months prior always seems to be fine, but then it is a 1986 car, I can't imagine a Gilbern Invader was meant for unleaded.

It is an interesting question and one that has ramifications for all

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:14 pm**

MisterH wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:02 am
Hi Espada,

Firstly, not sure how an increase can be from 24 to 18mpg, unless you meant that the other way around?

I presume you are an Arts & Humanities student Ben?

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:36 pm**

I agree I will also run E5 whilst available.

MPG just meant that the consumption increased as in used more, I like to confuse. That problem was resolved by a 4.0 v8 swap. Better overall gearing improved the average to around 26mpg. though I am guessing that would not be the case if pushed.

As for the Invader it was converted for unleaded, but definitely only lasted a few weeks prior to the need to drain. It is possible the fuel was stale when purchased (local village petrol station) the car would still run but not correctly, it could best be described as snappy. The engine was out to 3.1 and not that standard, 73 car so still on the weber carb which was jetted as required for the set up.

The solution was to not leave the tanks full.

Kind regards

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:43 pm**

jamescarruthers wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:14 pm

MisterH wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:02 am
Hi Espada,

Firstly, not sure how an increase can be from 24 to 18mpg, unless you meant that the other way around?

I presume you are an Arts & Humanities student Ben?

French, Business and Computer Science my dear fellow, last time I checked an increase was from a smaller number to a bigger one, looked like a decrease in MPG, but then, nothing is certain these days

Now I see it was fuel consumption not miles travelled that had increased

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:42 pm**

I think we are late to the party with E10.

California have had it for ages.... E15 in places... and the EU mainland have had E10 a while now.

If you believe the compatibility tables here then Volvo's are safe since 1976... assuming all materials are to OE spec. So, if someone has fitted some eBay fuel hose since then, who's to say what's compatible?

My limited knowledge knows Ethanol absorbs water a bit like brake fluid - so 10% ethanol is worse than 5% ethanol in this matter. I am a great fan of the TV show "Roadkill" via MotorTrend and that is filmed in California. I have seen carburettors, float bowls and fuel tanks destroyed with the stuff after standing for a year or so.

Super Unleaded will remain 5% so it's best to fill with a tank of that before winter hibernation. On the flip side, if you are going on a long journey and going to see fuel throughput, I can't see E10 doing much harm.... assuming fuel hoses etc. are of high quality.

We are also lucky being equipped with knock sensors - so a jump to Super 98 octane is managed by said sensor. Anything older might need a tweak of the dizzy if they start pinking.... which is annoying if you want to jump between the two fuels all the time. For these motorists, it would be handy to go back to the late 1800's with retard/advance on the steering wheel

I think i'll be using super more and take the financial hit for the 'toy' cars at least. I'm gonna make a far-out prediction here, but running an internal combustion over the next 20 years is gonna get a whole load more expensive. It's a given.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:04 pm**

Jay-Kay-Em wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:42 pm
For these motorists, it would be handy to go back to the late 1800's with retard/advance on the steering wheel

along with numerous other levers, knobs and other mechanical adjusters...........

Jay-Kay-Em wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:42 pm
I think i'll be using super more and take the financial hit for the 'toy' cars at least. I'm gonna make a far-out prediction here, but running an internal combustion over the next 20 years is gonna get a whole load more expensive. It's a given.

sadly so, I guess at some point the leccy cars will also have to be taxed to make up for lost revenue from fuel tax (and VAT), road fund tax etc

not quite how they'd divvy up the cost of electricity used to heat your home vs that used for transporation?

PS If they have thought about it they are sh1t scared to tell anybody until we have all spent > £25k on a leccy car? (need a 'can o worms emoji ?)

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:22 pm**

sadly so, I guess at some point the leccy cars will also have to be taxed to make up for lost revenue from fuel tax (and VAT), road fund tax etc

not quite how they'd divvy up the cost of electricity used to heat your home vs that used for transporation?

PS If they have thought about it they are sh1t scared to tell anybody until we have all spent > £25k on a leccy car? (need a 'can o worms emoji ?)

We can call it a surcharge to pay for the nuclear power station that will be required to fuel them, or optionally we can use all of those wind turbines and all drive when the wind blows

But back to E10, has anyone in Mainland Europe experienced problems, just curious.

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:27 am**

Well, here's a report from mainland Europe, where E10 has been introduced a couple of years ago.

I've been driving my daily car, a Volvo V70, for almost 4 years now and have recorded fuel consumption right from the start. In 2018 I've driven from the Netherlands to Norway (with a ferry from Kiel to Oslo), with E10 available in Germany only, so I could tell the difference with mpg on Dutch (<5% ethanol), German (E10) and Norwegian (<5% ethanol) fuel.

To my surprise, I could not tell the difference! The lowest recorded fuel consumption that holiday was on E10, with a full tank of German petrol before embarking the ferry, as fuel in Norway is expensive even to Dutch standards. I realise this is based on a population of N=1 but I think we can safely assume that extreme jumps in mpg are highly exaggerated. Even when E10 was introduced in The Netherlands in 2019, fuel consumption didn't change noticably. I have to note that this V70 is imported from Sweden and is equipped with a 2 litre Ford flexifuel engine, which can even run on E85. E85 is not available in The Netherlands where I live, but it is available in France for 50p a litre. Happy times on holiday!

Fuel consumption on E85 is 20-30% up because energy density of ethanol is lower, so you can expect a slight decrease in mpg on E10 (2-3%). A few percent is well beyond the variation in driving circumstances, having head- or tailwind makes more difference as is the lower speed limit imposed a year ago (from 130 to 100 km/h at daytime).

Back to the 480. My 480 will run happily on E10, but due to lockdowns I haven't been able to drive the car much. I have refuelled it last month, the previous refuelling was in September, 5 months ago. E10 has the nasty habit of so-called phase separation, ethanol, water and petrol will separate and form layers in the tank. This will no doubt have negative side-effects on the overall health of the car. So I'm biting the financial bullet every time and refuel with ethanol-free petrol (Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate, etc.).

TL;DR: If you don't drive the 480 much and refuel less than once in 3 months, don't top up with E10.

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:49 am**

brinkie wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:27 am
Well, here's a report from mainland Europe, where E10 has been introduced a couple of years ago.

I've been driving my daily car, a Volvo V70, for almost 4 years now and have recorded fuel consumption right from the start. In 2018 I've driven from the Netherlands to Norway (with a ferry from Kiel to Oslo), with E10 available in Germany only, so I could tell the difference with mpg on Dutch (<5% ethanol), German (E10) and Norwegian (<5% ethanol) fuel.

To my surprise, I could not tell the difference! The lowest recorded fuel consumption that holiday was on E10, with a full tank of German petrol before embarking the ferry, as fuel in Norway is expensive even to Dutch standards. I realise this is based on a population of N=1 but I think we can safely assume that extreme jumps in mpg are highly exaggerated. Even when E10 was introduced in The Netherlands in 2019, fuel consumption didn't change noticably. I have to note that this V70 is imported from Sweden and is equipped with a 2 litre Ford flexifuel engine, which can even run on E85. E85 is not available in The Netherlands where I live, but it is available in France for 50p a litre. Happy times on holiday! Fuel consumption on E85 is 20-30% up because energy density of ethanol is lower, so you can expect a slight decrease in mpg on E10 (2-3%). A few percent is well beyond the variation in driving circumstances, having head- or tailwind makes more difference as is the lower speed limit imposed a year ago (from 130 to 100 km/h at daytime).

Back to the 480. My 480 will run happily on E10, but due to lockdowns I haven't been able to drive the car much. I have refuelled it last month, the previous refuelling was in September, 5 months ago. E10 has the nasty habit of so-called phase separation, ethanol, water and petrol will separate and form layers in the tank. This will no doubt have negative side-effects on the overall health of the car. So I'm biting the financial bullet every time and refuel with ethanol-free petrol (Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate, etc.).

TL;DR: If you don't drive the 480 much and refuel less than once in 3 months, don't top up with E10.

Mine is a daily so should probably be fine, however do you know how a 480 would run on E85? that sounds interesting as I would like to do some french trips at some point...

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:52 pm**

Short answer: DON'T PUT E85 IN YOUR CAR UNLESS IT IS CLEARLY DESIGNATED AS FFV (FLEXIFUEL VEHICLE)!

Long answer: E85 is a blend of bio-ethanol and unleaded petrol, in a 85/15 mix (winter 70/30). If your engine likes running on ethanol at all, it is highly corrosive and will eat into your fuel system and cilinder head. The only vehicles capable of running on E85 are a few Fords and Ford-powered Volvos, Saabs designated as "BioPower" and I've heard of Renaults with a flexifuel engine - that's about it. I doubt any of them has made it to the UK market, to my knowledge they were only sold in Benelux, France and Sweden.

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 pm**

brinkie wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:52 pm
Short answer: DON'T PUT E85 IN YOUR CAR UNLESS IT IS CLEARLY DESIGNATED AS FFV (FLEXIFUEL VEHICLE)!

Long answer: E85 is a blend of bio-ethanol and unleaded petrol, in a 85/15 mix (winter 70/30).

well that would mean 70/30 all year round here? assuming that the ethanol tended to 'not evaporate' properly, will I (not) ask which food stufs were not grown to provide the fuel

I'd agree about mpg massively influenced by the head/tail wind >40mpg tail (maybe 45mpg) and just 40mpg with a head wind, over an 80 mile trip

how quickly the two split and then re-mix, will a few miles driving with a half-full tank be sufficient to 'shoogle it up' ?

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:44 pm**

Thank you Brinkie for an excellent update.

With limited use, as suspected it will be the phase separation that could potentially create problems.

Your comment touching on the corrosive properties is also interesting. Fuel line and seal issues I assume will be an easy fix but only time will tell how well soft or incompatible castings will manage the fuel.

Definitely one to watch and to be aware of.

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:28 pm**

Alan 480 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 pm
t would mean 70/30 all year round here? assuming that the ethanol tended to 'not evaporate' properly, will I (not) ask which food stufs were not grown to provide the fuel

The problem with ethanol-fuelled engines is that they won't start at lower temperatures. E100 (100% hydrous ethanol) like in Brazil needs a separate tank with petrol for starting the engine, in Europe they use a blend with 15% petrol/85% ethanol (E85) in summer and 30%/70% in winter, but even that won't be enough when temperatures hit 30 below zero. My Swedish import Volvo V70 2.0F is equipped with an electrical engine block heater, so it can be warmed up before starting. (We don't have E85 here anymore but a block heater was a convenient feature last month when temperatures were around -10, the engine oil was warmed up to almost 10 degrees above zero, improving cold start by a great deal!)

You don't see these problems with just 10% ethanol.

Volvo 480 Club Europe

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