Ignominy and the twitchy rear end.

Here you can talk about the joy owning a Volvo 480 brings. Non-technical discussions take place here, like what is the difference between an ES and a S version.

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SteveR
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Ignominy and the twitchy rear end.

Post by SteveR » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:29 pm

So there I was doing my usual 3 mile commute in the TT following last nights rain storms and I enter a roundabout after a nice preceding dash down dual carriageway.
The roundabout is one of those that has been tweaked to encourage a single lane by the addition of slightly raise bricking.
Anyway - the front end becomes disinclined to follow my intended direction - I then eased off the loud pedal and steered into the skid (there are cars waiting to get on the roundabout and rapidly getting closer). Next thing I know is that the rear end gets in compettion with the front end and breaks away big time. Result - one 480 facing the wrong way parked neatly on the inside grass of the roundabout. Recovery was by judicious use of throttle so as not to invoke wheel spin on the wet grass, the roundabout also has trees on it to prevent your view of approaching traffic (when facing the wrong way).


(yes xtreme it is the one near North Warnborough at the end of the by pass - I was coimg from the Motorway) my spies have seen my old turbo in fine fettle.

The video of Nurburging shows a very similar experience except they were on a dry road.

So has anyone else had experience of this twitchy rear end - I thought I had left those days beyhind in my TR2.
Last edited by SteveR on Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Agwa Moose
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Post by Agwa Moose » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:53 am

Your rear dampers ok?

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clubman_dan
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Post by clubman_dan » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:31 am

my old es was terrible for this! i span it out coming on to a dual carriage way once, you left a roundabout before coming around a pretty sharp bend, i forgot that it also gets sharper about halfway round and ended up with the car doing a spin and almost hitting the barriers in the hard shoulder!
the rear dampers on my es were shagged! my turbo is much better and the dampers in better nick, so check 'em out!
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hjkort
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Post by hjkort » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:31 am

I had the same problem with my ES. I suddenly faced a huge amount of ghostriders.
This happened because my reardampers were due for replacement.

The same happend a couple of weeks later on the highway. The road turned left slightly, easily done at 100km/h, but it was raining and I was doing 140km/h. I had to ease of the accelerator, because the frontend was going straight on. After the frontwheels gripped again, the rearend stepped out, resulting in me doing a fulllock slide at 120km/h.
Wow what an adrenaline rush....

Doing some laps on Zandvoort with new dampers, stiffer springs and slicks the problem came again.

When easing the gaspedal, the weight of the car is shifted more to the rear.
As the rear axle is a solid one with a panhard bar, the wheels will travel sideways when more weight is shifted on them, turning the car a little bit unstable.
Solving this problem is refurbisch all bushings and use new dampers.
Stiffer springs on the rear will decrease the amount of wheeltravel, thus reducing the amount that the wheels travel sideways.
As I am planning to do some more trackdays, I am going to replace the Panhardrod by a Watts link.

Panhard:
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Watts:
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Post by JayTee » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:13 pm

hjkort wrote: I had to ease of the accelerator,
When easing the gaspedal, the weight of the car is shifted more to the rear.
As the rear axle is a solid one with a panhard bar, the wheels will travel sideways when more weight is shifted on them, turning the car a little bit unstable.
I hate to say this BUT the problem here is not weight being transfered
to the rear tyres but FROM the rear, when you accelerate the front of your car lifts (yes?) placing weight to the rear of the car, when you lift mid bend the transfer of weight can make the back end swing (and can catch out the unwary) .
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss ;)
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rpruen
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Post by rpruen » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:34 pm

JayTee wrote:
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss ;)
I agree, it's more of a transfer problem than anything. That can be even worse with a RWD car because engine braking tends to make the wheels loose grip more easily.

I also agree that the best plan is to keep the power on, and go where that takes you. That way you retain some control over direction.

If you do end up in a 4 wheel skid, then the fastest way to regain control, is to steer into it slightly, then let go of everything. The car will sort itself out, then you can take charge again.

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2127
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Post by 2127 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:39 pm

So good quality dampers are essential to avoid such a skid, no?
Less is often more.

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rpruen
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Post by rpruen » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:43 pm

2127 wrote:So good quality dampers are essential to avoid such a skid, no?
Yes very much so.

Anything that helps keep the wheels in proper contact with the road is going to help.

Also susp. bushes are going to help a bit. If anything moves with a bump due to extra play, then it's not going to help.

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Post by guitarcarfanatic » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:49 pm

My car used to be shocking around corners. Changed the rear shocks and it was alot better. A pair of new rear tyres as well improved it even more. When funds allow I'm going to change the wishbone bushes as they are shagged and get some new front shocks as the cars ride just isnt too great over bumps and car still doesnt handle like my old red ES which was awesome!
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SteveR
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Post by SteveR » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:52 pm

Weight transfer is the key. As soon as I noticed lack of adhesion I steered into the skid - years of TR2 driving had honed the reflexes for this - but my undoing was an instinctive ease up on the power cos I was at that point heading towards cars waiting to enter the roundabout - this was when everything happened beyond my control.
I looked at the furrow in the roundabout and I must have been 180'd as I entered the grass moving sideways so that the front wheel piled up the ground as it was at right angles to travel.
I humbly acknowledge that the 480 handling is excellent and on that day a combination of wet surface, chnaging surfacing and being a dickhead was my undoing.

(180 in a 480 has a certain ring to it - nurburgring'd as my colleagues jested)

What is this zandfoort - is it as good as Nurburging? BTW Thruxton is on Monday so I might get rid of some of boy? racer urges then!!!
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martinholmesuk
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Post by martinholmesuk » Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:16 pm

What happens if you have less weight on the rear then a standard 480?
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Post by JayTee » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:22 am

martinholmesuk wrote:What happens if you have less weight on the rear then a standard 480?
You can have tail out fun on almost any roundabout :rofl:
I always ran mine without the spare wheel and as empty a boot as was possible and found the back would swing in a beautifully progressive manner (shit I miss that car :cry: )
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Post by martinholmesuk » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:51 am

:eek:

i hope I don't cry anytime soon!
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Post by Dan the 480 Man » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:20 pm

Dare i get involved...what i know about this sort of thing you could get on a stamp...and i aint joking! :lol:

A friend of mine has an imported Impreza STi...it had been played with before entering the country, but it's been well cared for. Now, on his, i don't know the exact spec, and i know they are 4wd, but he has something called an 'anti-lift' kit. I don't know how much these are, how available they are-but all i know is that when he sticks his foot down the front end of the car doesn't raise up like his mates one (seen them on a few private roads you see). Apart from looking like a hard bastard, all the power is going through the wheels as the the front isn't lifting as much, so it's not fighting for grip. Could there be something like that that could benefit the 480 in someway?

But in answer to the original post-i always seem to be getting my arse out :lol: I push the Toyo's a bit hard sometimes ;) It's almost like drifting, but more like spinny spinny fook there's a roondaboot! Good fun though...
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SteveR
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Post by SteveR » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:29 pm

Roundabouts seem to be the thing.
Another rbout nearer home has some fierce cambering and whenever it is wet I can power steer the back end. Needless to say on Thursday as soon as I felt it move I became suddenly restrained. Not my style.
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hjkort
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Post by hjkort » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:42 am

JayTee wrote: I hate to say this BUT the problem here is not weight being transfered
to the rear tyres but FROM the rear, when you accelerate the front of your car lifts (yes?) placing weight to the rear of the car, when you lift mid bend the transfer of weight can make the back end swing (and can catch out the unwary) .
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss ;)
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hjkort
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Post by hjkort » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:52 am

JayTee wrote: I hate to say this BUT the problem here is not weight being transfered
to the rear tyres but FROM the rear, when you accelerate the front of your car lifts (yes?) placing weight to the rear of the car, when you lift mid bend the transfer of weight can make the back end swing (and can catch out the unwary) .
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss ;)
Ofcourse you're right when you say the weight is being shifted from the rear, my mistake. :oops:

Lifting of the car when accelerating is not the cause for weightshifting, it's just the other way round, but I know waht you mean.
Sudden lift of the accelerator in corner will cause the back to step out, that's right, but you'll need to be on the edge of grip for this to happen.
Sudden step-outs, while not driving on edge relate to the rear suspension setup. (type of bushings, dampers, springs and tyres)
The problem is more common to the 480's with 15" than the types with 14", because the tyres are stiffer sideways.

I agree that the 480 is a very good handling car, especially when properly maintained.
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