Ignominy and the twitchy rear end.
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- SteveR
- 480 Veteran
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- Location: SE corner of Dorset, by the surf reef
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Ignominy and the twitchy rear end.
So there I was doing my usual 3 mile commute in the TT following last nights rain storms and I enter a roundabout after a nice preceding dash down dual carriageway.
The roundabout is one of those that has been tweaked to encourage a single lane by the addition of slightly raise bricking.
Anyway - the front end becomes disinclined to follow my intended direction - I then eased off the loud pedal and steered into the skid (there are cars waiting to get on the roundabout and rapidly getting closer). Next thing I know is that the rear end gets in compettion with the front end and breaks away big time. Result - one 480 facing the wrong way parked neatly on the inside grass of the roundabout. Recovery was by judicious use of throttle so as not to invoke wheel spin on the wet grass, the roundabout also has trees on it to prevent your view of approaching traffic (when facing the wrong way).
(yes xtreme it is the one near North Warnborough at the end of the by pass - I was coimg from the Motorway) my spies have seen my old turbo in fine fettle.
The video of Nurburging shows a very similar experience except they were on a dry road.
So has anyone else had experience of this twitchy rear end - I thought I had left those days beyhind in my TR2.
The roundabout is one of those that has been tweaked to encourage a single lane by the addition of slightly raise bricking.
Anyway - the front end becomes disinclined to follow my intended direction - I then eased off the loud pedal and steered into the skid (there are cars waiting to get on the roundabout and rapidly getting closer). Next thing I know is that the rear end gets in compettion with the front end and breaks away big time. Result - one 480 facing the wrong way parked neatly on the inside grass of the roundabout. Recovery was by judicious use of throttle so as not to invoke wheel spin on the wet grass, the roundabout also has trees on it to prevent your view of approaching traffic (when facing the wrong way).
(yes xtreme it is the one near North Warnborough at the end of the by pass - I was coimg from the Motorway) my spies have seen my old turbo in fine fettle.
The video of Nurburging shows a very similar experience except they were on a dry road.
So has anyone else had experience of this twitchy rear end - I thought I had left those days beyhind in my TR2.
Last edited by SteveR on Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Steve Robson
---------------
This was my K Reg 2L LtdEdn TwoTone - now sold
At Nurburgring (pic Suddy)
No longer a 480 owner
---------------
This was my K Reg 2L LtdEdn TwoTone - now sold
At Nurburgring (pic Suddy)
No longer a 480 owner
- Agwa Moose
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- clubman_dan
- 480 Rookie
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my old es was terrible for this! i span it out coming on to a dual carriage way once, you left a roundabout before coming around a pretty sharp bend, i forgot that it also gets sharper about halfway round and ended up with the car doing a spin and almost hitting the barriers in the hard shoulder!
the rear dampers on my es were shagged! my turbo is much better and the dampers in better nick, so check 'em out!
the rear dampers on my es were shagged! my turbo is much better and the dampers in better nick, so check 'em out!
'05 Skoda Fabia Vrs- diesel power baby!
'91 turbo oyster grey- full leather, momo wheel, aircon- SOLD
'94 turbo, metallic black- Scrapped
'95 2.0 es SOLD!
'86 mini 1380 rather fast!!
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'91 turbo oyster grey- full leather, momo wheel, aircon- SOLD
'94 turbo, metallic black- Scrapped
'95 2.0 es SOLD!
'86 mini 1380 rather fast!!
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- hjkort
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I had the same problem with my ES. I suddenly faced a huge amount of ghostriders.
This happened because my reardampers were due for replacement.
The same happend a couple of weeks later on the highway. The road turned left slightly, easily done at 100km/h, but it was raining and I was doing 140km/h. I had to ease of the accelerator, because the frontend was going straight on. After the frontwheels gripped again, the rearend stepped out, resulting in me doing a fulllock slide at 120km/h.
Wow what an adrenaline rush....
Doing some laps on Zandvoort with new dampers, stiffer springs and slicks the problem came again.
When easing the gaspedal, the weight of the car is shifted more to the rear.
As the rear axle is a solid one with a panhard bar, the wheels will travel sideways when more weight is shifted on them, turning the car a little bit unstable.
Solving this problem is refurbisch all bushings and use new dampers.
Stiffer springs on the rear will decrease the amount of wheeltravel, thus reducing the amount that the wheels travel sideways.
As I am planning to do some more trackdays, I am going to replace the Panhardrod by a Watts link.
Panhard:
Watts:
This happened because my reardampers were due for replacement.
The same happend a couple of weeks later on the highway. The road turned left slightly, easily done at 100km/h, but it was raining and I was doing 140km/h. I had to ease of the accelerator, because the frontend was going straight on. After the frontwheels gripped again, the rearend stepped out, resulting in me doing a fulllock slide at 120km/h.
Wow what an adrenaline rush....
Doing some laps on Zandvoort with new dampers, stiffer springs and slicks the problem came again.
When easing the gaspedal, the weight of the car is shifted more to the rear.
As the rear axle is a solid one with a panhard bar, the wheels will travel sideways when more weight is shifted on them, turning the car a little bit unstable.
Solving this problem is refurbisch all bushings and use new dampers.
Stiffer springs on the rear will decrease the amount of wheeltravel, thus reducing the amount that the wheels travel sideways.
As I am planning to do some more trackdays, I am going to replace the Panhardrod by a Watts link.
Panhard:
Watts:
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I hate to say this BUT the problem here is not weight being transferedhjkort wrote: I had to ease of the accelerator,
When easing the gaspedal, the weight of the car is shifted more to the rear.
As the rear axle is a solid one with a panhard bar, the wheels will travel sideways when more weight is shifted on them, turning the car a little bit unstable.
to the rear tyres but FROM the rear, when you accelerate the front of your car lifts (yes?) placing weight to the rear of the car, when you lift mid bend the transfer of weight can make the back end swing (and can catch out the unwary) .
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss
There's a bit of 480 in all of us
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- rpruen
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I agree, it's more of a transfer problem than anything. That can be even worse with a RWD car because engine braking tends to make the wheels loose grip more easily.JayTee wrote:
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss
I also agree that the best plan is to keep the power on, and go where that takes you. That way you retain some control over direction.
If you do end up in a 4 wheel skid, then the fastest way to regain control, is to steer into it slightly, then let go of everything. The car will sort itself out, then you can take charge again.
Richard
Car Status: Squashed :(
Now have 765 GLE 2.8 V6
Now have 765 GLE 2.8 V6
- rpruen
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Yes very much so.2127 wrote:So good quality dampers are essential to avoid such a skid, no?
Anything that helps keep the wheels in proper contact with the road is going to help.
Also susp. bushes are going to help a bit. If anything moves with a bump due to extra play, then it's not going to help.
Richard
Car Status: Squashed :(
Now have 765 GLE 2.8 V6
Now have 765 GLE 2.8 V6
- guitarcarfanatic
- 480 Is my middle name
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My car used to be shocking around corners. Changed the rear shocks and it was alot better. A pair of new rear tyres as well improved it even more. When funds allow I'm going to change the wishbone bushes as they are shagged and get some new front shocks as the cars ride just isnt too great over bumps and car still doesnt handle like my old red ES which was awesome!
1996 Saab 9000 CSE 2litre EcoTurbo
Previously...
Peugeot 406 executive TD - The devil!
1991 Red Turbo - Great condition and surprisingly un-rusty!
1989 Light Blue metallic Turbo - Sold!
1993 Steel grey S - Bought for parts
1990 Red ES - Now resting in car heaven!
1989 Black ES - Great runner
1989 Black ES - Spares Car. I murdered it!
Previously...
Peugeot 406 executive TD - The devil!
1991 Red Turbo - Great condition and surprisingly un-rusty!
1989 Light Blue metallic Turbo - Sold!
1993 Steel grey S - Bought for parts
1990 Red ES - Now resting in car heaven!
1989 Black ES - Great runner
1989 Black ES - Spares Car. I murdered it!
- SteveR
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Weight transfer is the key. As soon as I noticed lack of adhesion I steered into the skid - years of TR2 driving had honed the reflexes for this - but my undoing was an instinctive ease up on the power cos I was at that point heading towards cars waiting to enter the roundabout - this was when everything happened beyond my control.
I looked at the furrow in the roundabout and I must have been 180'd as I entered the grass moving sideways so that the front wheel piled up the ground as it was at right angles to travel.
I humbly acknowledge that the 480 handling is excellent and on that day a combination of wet surface, chnaging surfacing and being a dickhead was my undoing.
(180 in a 480 has a certain ring to it - nurburgring'd as my colleagues jested)
What is this zandfoort - is it as good as Nurburging? BTW Thruxton is on Monday so I might get rid of some of boy? racer urges then!!!
I looked at the furrow in the roundabout and I must have been 180'd as I entered the grass moving sideways so that the front wheel piled up the ground as it was at right angles to travel.
I humbly acknowledge that the 480 handling is excellent and on that day a combination of wet surface, chnaging surfacing and being a dickhead was my undoing.
(180 in a 480 has a certain ring to it - nurburgring'd as my colleagues jested)
What is this zandfoort - is it as good as Nurburging? BTW Thruxton is on Monday so I might get rid of some of boy? racer urges then!!!
Steve Robson
---------------
This was my K Reg 2L LtdEdn TwoTone - now sold
At Nurburgring (pic Suddy)
No longer a 480 owner
---------------
This was my K Reg 2L LtdEdn TwoTone - now sold
At Nurburgring (pic Suddy)
No longer a 480 owner
- martinholmesuk
- Friend of Club 480 Europe
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You can have tail out fun on almost any roundaboutmartinholmesuk wrote:What happens if you have less weight on the rear then a standard 480?
I always ran mine without the spare wheel and as empty a boot as was possible and found the back would swing in a beautifully progressive manner (shit I miss that car )
There's a bit of 480 in all of us
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- martinholmesuk
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- Dan the 480 Man
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Dare i get involved...what i know about this sort of thing you could get on a stamp...and i aint joking!
A friend of mine has an imported Impreza STi...it had been played with before entering the country, but it's been well cared for. Now, on his, i don't know the exact spec, and i know they are 4wd, but he has something called an 'anti-lift' kit. I don't know how much these are, how available they are-but all i know is that when he sticks his foot down the front end of the car doesn't raise up like his mates one (seen them on a few private roads you see). Apart from looking like a hard bastard, all the power is going through the wheels as the the front isn't lifting as much, so it's not fighting for grip. Could there be something like that that could benefit the 480 in someway?
But in answer to the original post-i always seem to be getting my arse out I push the Toyo's a bit hard sometimes It's almost like drifting, but more like spinny spinny fook there's a roondaboot! Good fun though...
A friend of mine has an imported Impreza STi...it had been played with before entering the country, but it's been well cared for. Now, on his, i don't know the exact spec, and i know they are 4wd, but he has something called an 'anti-lift' kit. I don't know how much these are, how available they are-but all i know is that when he sticks his foot down the front end of the car doesn't raise up like his mates one (seen them on a few private roads you see). Apart from looking like a hard bastard, all the power is going through the wheels as the the front isn't lifting as much, so it's not fighting for grip. Could there be something like that that could benefit the 480 in someway?
But in answer to the original post-i always seem to be getting my arse out I push the Toyo's a bit hard sometimes It's almost like drifting, but more like spinny spinny fook there's a roondaboot! Good fun though...
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- SteveR
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Roundabouts seem to be the thing.
Another rbout nearer home has some fierce cambering and whenever it is wet I can power steer the back end. Needless to say on Thursday as soon as I felt it move I became suddenly restrained. Not my style.
Another rbout nearer home has some fierce cambering and whenever it is wet I can power steer the back end. Needless to say on Thursday as soon as I felt it move I became suddenly restrained. Not my style.
Steve Robson
---------------
This was my K Reg 2L LtdEdn TwoTone - now sold
At Nurburgring (pic Suddy)
No longer a 480 owner
---------------
This was my K Reg 2L LtdEdn TwoTone - now sold
At Nurburgring (pic Suddy)
No longer a 480 owner
- hjkort
- Advanced 480 rookie
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JayTee wrote: I hate to say this BUT the problem here is not weight being transfered
to the rear tyres but FROM the rear, when you accelerate the front of your car lifts (yes?) placing weight to the rear of the car, when you lift mid bend the transfer of weight can make the back end swing (and can catch out the unwary) .
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss
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- hjkort
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Ofcourse you're right when you say the weight is being shifted from the rear, my mistake.JayTee wrote: I hate to say this BUT the problem here is not weight being transfered
to the rear tyres but FROM the rear, when you accelerate the front of your car lifts (yes?) placing weight to the rear of the car, when you lift mid bend the transfer of weight can make the back end swing (and can catch out the unwary) .
in a front drive car the best thing to do if you have understeer (and it sounds like you did SteveR and Hjkort is to get more gas on and stay committed OR drive in a way that won't scare yourselves and make you back off the throttle (no insult intended gents) the 480 IMHO is a great handling car and has far far better than most peoples driving skills
now as AOL say discuss
Lifting of the car when accelerating is not the cause for weightshifting, it's just the other way round, but I know waht you mean.
Sudden lift of the accelerator in corner will cause the back to step out, that's right, but you'll need to be on the edge of grip for this to happen.
Sudden step-outs, while not driving on edge relate to the rear suspension setup. (type of bushings, dampers, springs and tyres)
The problem is more common to the 480's with 15" than the types with 14", because the tyres are stiffer sideways.
I agree that the 480 is a very good handling car, especially when properly maintained.
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