brake fade - possible cure?

Brakepads, discs, handbrake. The brakes are crucial for your Volvo 480. Use this category to learn all you need to know!

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robkendall
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brake fade - possible cure?

Post by robkendall » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:42 pm

was thinking that the 480s seem to suffer from brake fade quite a lot....especially if you drive your car hard.
i know that expensive pads can help, but have thouhgt about a possible reduction in brake fade.

basically air cooling.
if you look at some of the exotics...especially the koneisningingthing it has channeled air onto the discs, which then vents through the vented disc.
all this basically is, is piped air from the front......in the case of the car above, the air then travels through the disc, but it should also work with solids?

im looking at piping air from the front grill under the bumper, and passing it to the back of the discs....at this point, it will just blow over the discs, but in future i want to look at making it go through the vented discs
(am making some grp disc plate things(the bit thats always rusted at the back of the disc!) that will accept an air channel)
does anyone know what the 'optimum' temperature 480 brakes should run at?
can anyone see benefit in this, or is it just a pipe dream that isnt worth the effort?
I know the F1 trucks spary water onto their discs, but obviously different kettle of fish!
rgrds
rob
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Post by vins480t » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:05 pm

but is cooling the only thing?
grooved disks help alot too
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Post by robkendall » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:09 pm

isnt there some concerns over cross drilled grooved discs and shattering?
a decent airflow through the discs should be enough to keep the temp down?
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Post by SanPhire » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:26 pm

http://www.ebcbrakes.com used to have a graph demonstrating optimal temps for braking but I can't find it at the moment.

If memory serves though - brakes running standard pads are good for braking from cold to 450C before they get upset - but I found the killer in our cars is when the heat gets run through the caliper and boils up the brake fluid - which is what? 120C? I guess - the specs on DOT5.1 must be around on the net somewhere.

You could be onto something beautiful my friend, but if your forced cooling doesn't work - I used to know a man who retired from his life of building brake systems for Works rally cars not long ago - who could probably sort you out with some calliper-fluid recirculators (and maybe even a hydraulic handbrake and split control braking and... I'm getting carried away - I like brakes!!! 8) )
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Post by Murf » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:53 pm

if you look at low spec 440's, instead of having front fogs they have a pair of grilles covering up the hole.
i often think that you could do away with fogs and have a small duct feeding to each of the front discs fed from these grilles.

how often do you use your fogs and how often do you use your brakes??
;)
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Post by robkendall » Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:30 pm

Murf wrote:if you look at low spec 440's, instead of having front fogs they have a pair of grilles covering up the hole.
i often think that you could do away with fogs and have a small duct feeding to each of the front discs fed from these grilles.

how often do you use your fogs and how often do you use your brakes??
;)
mr brascos 480 has funny grill things instead of fogs.......so the 480 does have the grill setup without fogs.....could maybe turn these into induction ports?
its such a a simple idea....two pipes from the front, even just hanging around the disc are going to lower the temp dramatically with ported air.
i want to have the disc cover bits (the rusty bits behind the discs etc) to have loads of holes in them to act as a sort of diffuser, but it will obviously compress the air a little, maybe giving more force to the air flow?
this can then just blow against the back of the disc.....should work for everyone then.
vented though.......if i can get the air into the centre of the disc, the air can then be forced up through the vents, so cold air will actually pass between the layers of disc...taking away warm air!
thats the theory anyway.....will have to see how it works in practice!!

rgrds
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Post by Murf » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:03 pm

was it just the solid blanks that all the S models have or was it the kinda lattice like ones with the holes in?
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Post by robkendall » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:14 pm

Murf wrote:was it just the solid blanks that all the S models have or was it the kinda lattice like ones with the holes in?
solid blanks, but not all S variants had them....mine has fogs
volvo standardisation remember mr murphy!!
lol
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Post by vins480t » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:19 am

there is enough air going past the fogs aslong as you direct it to the brakes.
so you dont need to dump the fogs
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Post by VanDerGraaf » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:08 am

robkendall wrote:
Murf wrote:was it just the solid blanks that all the S models have or was it the kinda lattice like ones with the holes in?
solid blanks, but not all S variants had them....mine has fogs
volvo standardisation remember mr murphy!!
lol
rob
My Turbo had the lattice-type plates over the fog light spaces when i got her.
Must admit they are good spaces for air type mods. Although i fitted fogs, i kept the blanking plates, may come in useful in the future.... ;)
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Post by robkendall » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:29 am

i want to keep the fogs....i like em, but im thinking of doing something with the bumper anyway....i might add a couple of low key 'bullet' type intakes either side of the fgs, specifically for this.

all still at the drawing board stage at the mo.....ive yet to get a 'disc protector' type thing off in one piece, or at least good enough to use as a template!!

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Post by MrE » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:17 pm

This might sound daft, but are sure your brake fade isn't linked to ageing brake fluid? As brake fluid ages it absorbs alot of water, if the brakes get very hot the water boils in the lines and causes major fade....

I've flushed my brakes right though to remove all the old fluid. Emtpy the reservoir( with a ciringe) , pour fresh fluid in and bleed the brakes right through. We got some pretty mingin looking black stuff out of it!

I've got red dot grooved disks and pads. Suffer a little fad when really thrashing it :twisted: so i'm gonna put larger, later calipers and vented disks on the front. Regards, Edd :D
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Post by 480_rocket » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:03 pm

My brake fluid has gone up over time, could this be water+air bubbles? I can't imagine what else it could be!!! PS , this is before I put new pads on the rear disks.
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Post by MrE » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:50 am

That would be a reasonable assumption i should think. I would replace the brake fluid if there's any doubt. Edd :)
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Post by 480_rocket » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:52 am

Think I might let a garage do that, don't want to snap me nipples off!
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Post by robkendall » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:15 am

hi ed

its not something specific to me really,just a thought in general for the turbos and modded turbos?
i always replace all the fluids i can in cars when i get em, that way , i know theyre new...best way really.
ive still noticed a bit of fade though....but i really do hammer the brakes
(scary when approaching a junction at XX mph, and you do an imitation of an oil tanker stopping)

just thought it might help to keep the temp down around the general brake area?
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Post by pol » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:49 am

I'm more than happy with my brakes since changing fluid. Don't seem to have faded yet...

If you run air ducts to the brakes, what happens then if you brake hard to a stand still?

pol

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Post by martinholmesuk » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:18 am

pol wrote:I'm more than happy with my brakes since changing fluid. Don't seem to have faded yet...

If you run air ducts to the brakes, what happens then if you brake hard to a stand still?

pol
It's not going to work with no air flow. Reducing brake fade is for when your going down the lanes and not going to stop fully. Trying to keep the brakes cooler that's all.

once you stop there going to heat up fast.
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Post by robkendall » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:53 am

pol wrote:I'm more than happy with my brakes since changing fluid. Don't seem to have faded yet...

If you run air ducts to the brakes, what happens then if you brake hard to a stand still?

pol
obviously the less forward motion the less air flow.....dunno really, the benefit might not be worth the hassle of doing it.....just wondered is all......i tend to brake hard while going fast, then drop down and speed up again to pass things, so for me would be good, as overall speed and revs dont drop much? (other than for the few seconds of intense braking!)


:dunno:

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Post by Dan the 480 Man » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:54 am

I think it's worth doing. When i made my cold feed for my air filter, i noticed a massive (well, i say massive-it was noticeable!) difference in the engine temp, and the pipe i used for the air feed was only 4" in diameter.

I think it's def. something worth looking into-i hate the brake fade i get on my solids. I thought about some sort of venting infront of the wheel, but i don't want to start messing around with bodywork. I think the secret will be to keep the feed as short as possible so it's as direct as you can get it. Keep the fogs, just place the feed's somewhere else. If it's coming directly from the front of the car it won't make much difference anyway.

It's going to be one of those things you'll never know until you try. I'd give it a go-even if it's not a vast improvement, there will be some improvement.
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