Clutch: Diaphragm not strong enough??

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:58 pm

Mat gets clutch slip at 15psi from what I can tell

rpruen · Post by **rpruen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:18 am

So it's getting worse?

Not surprising.

Wait till he gets a clutch that doesn't slip, then he will have the full benifit from the extra 15 psi of boost that's going to waste at the moment.

Richard

MatBat · Post by **MatBat** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:06 am

Hehe,

Shhhh, I was keeping the full potential a secret

Would a new volvo housing (early type) and clutch plate from a comparative renault (maybe a 19?) be a strong enough option for the earlier type clutch?

rpruen · Post by **rpruen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:47 am

I don't know... Looking at the two clutches.... I doubt it. The late type is decidedly more beefy. The spring is stronger, and the plate is also bigger. It may be worth a try though?

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the performace clutches use the same spring force as the late type clutch. According to Sachs there isn't a stronger spring than the late type clutch without going to a racing clutch.

Richard

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:17 am

hmm, well mine sometimes slips at 3 or 4 psi....

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:18 am

chris1roll wrote:hmm, well mine sometimes slips at 3 or 4 psi....

That's not good

lee · Post by **lee** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:32 am

Is you cable adjusted as it should slip at 4psi. If it is then its time for a new clutch

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:32 pm

Adjusting the cable will have no bearing on whether the clutch slips. It only effects the amount of disengagement, and therfore whether you can get it into gear or not.

Adjusting the cable will only allow you to lift the plate away from the friction disc by allowing sufficient travel. with your foot off the pedal, the pressure plate clamps as far as is possible onto the friction plate and the clutch pedal "hangs" on it. There is no upstop on the pedal, i.e. you could have it so it touches the dash,(infact yu can lift it up there with your foot) if there was an upstop, then adjustment could affect slip because after a certain amount of wear, the upstop woul deffectively be the same as having your foot on the clutch.

Think about when you fit the engine in the car, the actuator arm is forced into position by the diphragm springs. then you attatch the cable. Adjusting the cable moves the pedal position, but it does not move the actuator arm.

Basically once the clutch starts slipping, its knacked.

Think i've explained that so its understandable.

Anyway, today it decided that 15 psi was fine, then suddenly it wasn't again, so its evidently not getting even/consistent clamping pressure from the pressure plate...so yes, the clutch, or rather the plate, is knacked.

Hence:

chris1roll wrote:Anyhoo, been looking online, and hae found:
http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/frame- ... utches.htm
Have a black diamnd "power clutch" for Â£131.26 inc VAT and delivery, or an EBC one for Â£151.71 all in.

Needfor speed were much more expensive, 132+almost 19 quid for delivery, for the black diamond one.

Now, these are only for the early type clutch, presumably they decided that the later type couldn't be bettered for a sensible price?
Therefore, Is it worth getting an "uprated" one over the proper volvo EARLY TYPE clutch, and if so, does EBC deserve the extra Â£20?

lee · Post by **lee** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:09 pm

I have 18psi on the standard volvo clutch without it slipping before.

I have now replaced my clutch with a standard 215 volvo type.

As for adjustment of the cable it does help but only a little. I should know i got to the point where 30mph was it on the M6 Toll. I adjusted the clutch to the dash. This got me home and to work for a few weeks. It was however still slipping but not as bad.

For those of you out there with the 215 clutch (new type) then consider the reno clio 172 clutch as a possible upgrade. I was going to go for this when i last changed. But do your research first. It is a different part number but there have been some problems with the 172 clutch.

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:19 pm

Richard has a sachs/volvo pressure plate, and a reno clio 182 friction plate, and a carbon fibre release bearing ready to go in. He also managed around 18 psi before slip. 25 on the other hand.......

I however don't have the clio clutch option, unless iwant to spend silly money on a flywheel and blue ECU, which is why I am looking at the others.
Unless I can find a blue label ECU lying around, (yeah, right) and steal the flywheel out of richards spares car (think he'd notice it going??

), but i expect he wants it!!

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:55 pm

Well I have ordered the black diamond one, should be here in 4-5 working days. probably won't have time to do it untill my next weekend off in a fortnight though.

I'm trying (being the operative word) to save money, so I shall be trying it with the engine still in the car. that way I will save a fair bit of money on: coolant that is only 3 weeks old, and the turbo exhaust gaskets that cost like Â£20, and hopefully i can get away with not draining and replacing my 8 month old gerbox oil too.
Hopefully my brother will be on hand to act as photographer, so anyone else can have a guide....

460 doesn't have as much grunt as my car.....

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:33 pm

Ok, a little sooner than i had planned.....

If you are going to change the clutch......TAKE THE ENGINE OUT!!!

Last night we took the engine out of Richards spares car in 2 1/4 hours, with no real hurry to it.

Today on the other hand, I have just spent all day struggling to get at poxy bolts etc, to remove the gearbox in the car, and now have no skin left on my arms.
I should have twigged when half way through the instructions it said remove starter motor - that being a good hours job in itself. Oh, and the box will not move far enough away without droppping the subframe a little way- another haynes lie! last time i take ANY notice of that!

Still, got the clutch out, doesn't look worn out, so must be the pressure plate. The black diamond one looks the business at least.

hmmm, if i'd taken the engine out i could be done by now.

the hassle is not worth the saving on gaskets etc. you have been warned!

Chris

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:43 pm

My engine / subframe comes out on Saturday. Lee and Laserowl are going to the Batcave (MatBat's place) in west sussex.

rpruen · Post by **rpruen** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:34 pm

I was thinnking about the engine out method of doing the gearbox / clutch today. Ithe reason for that was I was taking a sludge pump apart, up to my elbows in horid gunk... Erm... anyways

Having done the flywheel / clutch out of the car. I agree with you, best to remove the engine. It's about 3/4 hour job to fit a flywheel and clutch, plus the gearbox while it's out of the car.

Richard

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:28 pm

Update:

I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.
I wish i had taken the engine out.

Went out there for an hour to fit the new clutch to the flywheel and clean up the dirt from in the clutch housing a bit. Because the gearbox was in the way you can't centre the friction plate by eye, so last night i bought a centring tool (Â£14) readiness.
Centred the friction plate on the pressure plate, got it all under the car ready to go in.... ah....
Clutch won't go in with the gearbox where it was.

Had to let the subframe farther down than even VADIS said - right off the bolts, onto another set of axle stands, and take a stud out of the top of the gearbox to get it far enough away to get the clutch in.

I'm not really looking forward to somehow manhandling the gearbox back to where it came from without damaging the new finger springs....Have to wait till sunday so edd can help, no way would i be able to do it on my own....remeber the 740 wasn't so bad cos you could get to it reasonably well to manhandle it, and that was MUCH heavier. 480 is just awkward.

Still I couldn't finish it this weekend if i wanted to...(which i do, but you know what i mean...) because the special fluorosilicone hose for the turbo oil return line is knackered and a new one isn't arriving at formula cars till Monday.

Still, I think Amy's cars been fairly well "de-coked" now

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:53 pm

Still I couldn't finish it this weekend if i wanted to...(which i do, but you know what i mean...) because the special fluorosilicone hose for the turbo oil return line is knackered and a new one isn't arriving at formula cars till Monday.

Had the same problem last week when the T25 went on. fooking more expense

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:03 pm

Right,on Sunday morning Edd and I got the gearbox back on, and everything back together apart from the o/s driveshaft, so I can fit that hose.

hose didn't come today

so it looks like I'l be 460-ing for at least another day.

When I said to Volvo I wish i had taken the engine out they said I could have told you that for free!

Oh well, this proved It is possible with the engine in, but i will never do it this way again.

Richards next, then mums complaining hers is slipping occaisionally.

lee · Post by **lee** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:44 pm

I have always said it is easier to do anything on the 480 by removing the engine.

Sometimes however i feel thats all i'm doing all the time.

As for that poxy pipe

I am having a new one made

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:18 am

Right, got my little hose last night, got the car all back together adjusted the clutch cable and off I went.

Had to go to the m-way services to get petrol, so once warmed up put foot flat on the floor at 80ish in fifth. new bastard clutch slipped.

It didn't have time to get oil contamination, and neither the crankshaft seal or the gearbox shaft appeared to be leaking, and i cleaned off the flywheel (not that it was oily) before fitting.
It would slip in 2nd 3rd and 4th too.....
I have an extra tweaked rpruen ECU, with increased spool time, and as much boost as the engine can cope with before the safety features cut in.
I think the engine is producing too much power for the clutch to cope.

Been thinking about it all night, and when the clutch turned up, it said on it various renault..... of course i should have twigged before, its uprated compared to the renault clutches, but probably not (much) compared to the Volvo one. It just happens to fit the early 480-s.

So, got home, swore a lot and put in the standard ECU, and rolled back out on to the '38.....
I then proceeded to drive it like i stole it, the hardest I have driven in quite some time.
There was not a glimmer of slip under any situation.so its obviously quite enough for standard cars.

Edds cars clutch is fine with the modded ECU. But, I don't think his engine is producing as much power as mine- it wouldn't start with one tweaked as much as mine in it. perhaps if it was his would slip too.

Needless to say, i'm a little peeved.....

Am i destined to remain on standard boost?

MrE · Post by **MrE** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:09 am

D'oh you've got to be kidding. After all that and the clutch is no better than before????