New Gearbox Fitted and Car won't Start

pol · Post by **pol** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:58 pm

Need your help people....

After fitting my gearbox the bastard wont start. Spent all week fixing it and i'm just completely drained. Sure you all know the feeling. Anyway firstly thought i had a dead battery so borrowed another. Still wont turn over. Removed the starter motor and tested it and it seemed dead. So replaced that. Still nothing.

The oil gauge is waving around all over the place and also the rev counter. I know the new starter is good. The starter doesn't even try to move as if it's getting no power to it. Pretty sure it's not jammed. What can I have done? I'm all out of ideas. And money. Me and the car are stuck in Cheltenham until I either fix it or burn it or sell it.

Please help.

pol

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:15 pm

That random movement of guages sounds like an earthing fault to me. the power can't go where it should, and so takes the next easiest route, by the sounds of it through the dash instruments.
(740 had random dash syndrome, was earth)

First check all your earths that you have disturbed, then all the others!

See if there is voltage present at the trigger wire for the starter when you turn the key to position 3

Can you bump start it with another car? that way you can tell teh rest of teh engine wiring is working.

pol · Post by **pol** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:17 pm

Just to add... There is no voltage drop on the gauge when trying to start. Everything worked fine until I removed and replaced the gearbox... Actually, it wouldn't start as soon as I got it to cheltenham.. Been through all the old posts on starting problems, nothing seems too relevant. Relays? I'm getting some click near the glove box. Think i'll check to see if there's any fault codes...

Really would appreciate every coment.

Thanks

pol

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:18 pm

Also check the +ve wire onto starter is not cracked, ie at teh terminal ends. this type of thing killed my mums alternator
Check for voltage through it, or continuity test it.

Remember the crappy big spade connections on the +ve wires might need cleaning.

pol · Post by **pol** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:02 pm

Ok,
Earth strap. I'll check that. I only removed the one on the side of the gearbox, so i'll check that first. Fault code 1-1-1 (no faults). My suspicion is that when I dropped the gearbox out, the fat +ve wires in trunking were still routed through a hole in the gearbox / mount thing so may have got pulled a little. What is a continuity test? Thanks for your comments so far chris....

By 'crappy spade connectors' do you mean up by the battery terminal?
I take it +ve for the starter is the bolt on connector to the starter and not the small spade.

Just not sure what to try at the moment. Hoping my head will work better tomorrow.

pol

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:47 am

Also if anyone can give good advise on looking for and fixing earth problems i'd like to hear it. I understand how a neg- earth works but what if it's broken?

pol

rpruen · Post by **rpruen** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:13 am

pol wrote:Also if anyone can give good advise on looking for and fixing earth problems i'd like to hear it. I understand how a neg- earth works but what if it's broken?

pol

One of the easy ways is to connect a volmeter from the engine block to the -ve bat terminal. Then have someone try to start the car. If the engine goes to more than 1 volt compared to the batery terminal, then you have a problem with the earth. To verify connect a jump lead from the -ve terminal to the engine.

Also check the batery feed (big wire) to the starter the same way, but this time measure from the +ve terminal of the bat. Again any more than a volt is likely to be a problem. Again to verify use a jump lead from the starter to the battery terminal. Be carefull not to short it out though.

It's also worth checking the ignition switch. Connect a lamp to the small spade on the starter, also leaving it connected to the starter. The other end of the bulb wire goes to the -ve battery terminal. The lamp should light when you turn the key to start. If the switch is at fault, then a temporary jumper wire from the spade on the starter to the +ve bat terminal should make the starter operate.

Hope that helps.

Richard

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:29 am

Ok, thanks. So I have a few things to check and try today. Think i'm going to need a multimeter, bulb, wire, jump leads and some luck. I had thought I should at least be able to hard wire a temporary start switch??

pol

rpruen · Post by **rpruen** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:16 am

pol wrote:Ok, thanks. So I have a few things to check and try today. Think i'm going to need a multimeter, bulb, wire, jump leads and some luck. I had thought I should at least be able to hard wire a temporary start switch??

pol

Yes you can wire up a start switch, just go from the +ve battery to the small spade on the starter (via a switch). Note that the ECU won't get the start signal, so it may be hard to start the engine. It should go, but you may need to crank for longer than normal.

You are right about the things you need. You could use the multimeter in place of the bulb, but it's easier to see the bulb light.

I'd try the jump lead from the battery -ve to the engine first, it sounds like an earth problem, and that's quick and easy. If everything works then you know what it is. If not then you need to go looking for other things.

Richard

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:01 pm

Ok... Going to charge the battery then have a play...

Cheers

pol

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:47 pm

Need more help please!

Been out with a test meter today and found some strange stuff...

Conecting meter between the neg- battery terminal and the engine gives some voltage reading, which increases when the ignition is turned a couple of clicks. No increase when turned to the start position. It's like there is some kind of positive shorting out to the earth? I had the starter turning the egine sort of, but it doesn't start it and it makes relays do strange things.

I connected the meter between neg- battery and the + spade connector for the starter and get no reading when turned to the starting position on the ignition switch.

How can I find the problem?

Thanks again

pol

rpruen · Post by **rpruen** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:04 pm

pol wrote:Need more help please!

Been out with a test meter today and found some strange stuff...

Conecting meter between the neg- battery terminal and the engine gives some voltage reading, which increases when the ignition is turned a couple of clicks. No increase when turned to the start position. It's like there is some kind of positive shorting out to the earth? I had the starter turning the egine sort of, but it doesn't start it and it makes relays do strange things.

I connected the meter between neg- battery and the + spade connector for the starter and get no reading when turned to the starting position on the ignition switch.

How can I find the problem?

Thanks again

pol

So you may well have some sort of earth problem on the engine. Connecting a jump lead will provide a temp fix, but make sure that you make a good connection, the engine lifing eyes are ok for this. If the starter turned at one point, but everything went crazy, then it's likely the engine will crank over if the earth is fixed. Note the injection system earth is taken from the engine, so if the engine earth is bad, then it won't start.

If you get no volts on the starter spade, then the ignition switch isn't supplying power to the starter. Sounds as if you have some wiring problems, or a dodgy switch, particularly if it did operate the starter once.

To start with fix (even if temporarily) the engine earth, then try again. You won't get sane readings on anything else untill it's fixed. Also check the earth is connected to the body of the car properly.

Hope that helps.

Richard

Ben Harris · Post by **Ben Harris** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:06 pm

Are there wires between the solenoid and the starter motor, or is it all one unit?

Do you get any voltage on the (according to the wiring diagram) grey-white wire which is running to the solenoid when you turn the key? Also, do you hear the solenoid click?

If you do get power on the grey-white wire, but no power on the actual motor itself, then it suggest that the solenoid is faulty. If you don't get power, then the problem is somewhere further back...

Oh, and I assume that you do have power at all times on the red wire running to the starter motor/solenoid - this is supposed to be connected directly to the battery.

Ben.

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:16 pm

The starter and solenoid are all ok. Yes, there is a constant +ve down there on the red cable. The grey/white wires have no voltage most of the time, but should be getting 12v when ignition is turned to start. What I found which was strange is if you turn the ignition switch quickly from completely off to the start position, you can get a reading on the grey/white wire. But it wont start it that way. If you turn the clicks on the ignition switch slowly in sequence (a normal way of operating it) you get nothing.

To make the starter turn I had connected it direct to the battery on one lead (the grey/white one).

So what does it mean if i get a small voltage reading with the ignition off when a meter is connected between -ve terminal and the engine? All I could think is there is some positive supply shorting out on the ground. Is this wrong?

Can't think how this can be related to changing the gearbox or having the car towed. Just after It was towed I noticed it wouldn't start but assumed a dead battery. Or maybe the batter was drained due to this problem.

I tried connecting a -ve lead to the engine but didn't seem to make any difference. The voltage was sometime up to 3v when the meter was connected between the battery -ve and engine.......

Thanks

pol

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:20 pm

Well my mega fuse went pop today. Mind if we go for another beer?

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:04 pm

You mean the one near the radiator. Big fat mega fuse?! For the alternator isn't it? Watching top-gear helped just now. Need Ferrari.

pol

Ben Harris · Post by **Ben Harris** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:10 pm

I'm not sure what the voltage you're seeing between the engine and the -ve lead shows.

This would my my procedure for troubleshooting. Follow it through on the '91 wiring diagram, page 20 to make sure, but I think I've got it right.....

When you hold the key in the "start" position, are you getting 12v on the White & Black wire coming off the ignition barrel?

No: Faulty ignition barrel.

Yes: Do you then get 12v on the Grey/White wire going into the CEM, at position B5?

No: Fault in wiring between ignition barrel and CEM.

Yes: Do you then get 12v on the Grey/White wire going out from the CEM, at position C8?

Yes: must be a fault with the wiring between the CEM and the solenoid.

No: Do you get 12v on the green/brown wire going into the CEM at position B3?

No: Fuse #17 blown, or faulty cable between battery and connector B3 on the CEM.

Yes: Faulty CEM, relay inside CEM stuck/faulty.

Ben.

pol · Post by **pol** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:58 pm

Thanks ben. I've never even seen my CEM. It's in the centre console isn't it? Under the velcro flaps?

Where could I see this wiring diagram for myself?

Thanks

pol

Ben Harris · Post by **Ben Harris** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:05 am

It's hosted on Gaz's website. It's the '91 English wiring diagram I was looking at.

The CEM is on the passenger-side (UK) inner wing, under the dashboard. You need to remove the glovebox to get to it.

Ben.

Murf · Post by **Murf** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:49 am

with clear and simple instructions like that, Ben, you should get a job with Haynes!!!