Millers Gear oil: Fully Synthetic or High Synthetic?

[JohnTurbo]

Whoa!

None of those oils' datasheets on your posted website clearly state anything about bronze!!

TRT and TRP say they are safe with brass....very many gearboxes have brass synchro components. Sure brass and bronze are both copper based alloys, but stainless steel and normal steel are both iron based and only one of them rusts.

ELF TRX claims to have "advanced protection for synchro components" which certainly could mean its bronze safe? Its anyones guess?

The question here is sulpur and phospherous compounds in the oils. I'm not a chemist and have done no research on what attacks what, but i'd imagine that since the components we're worrying about will be phosphur bronze, its possible the phospherous compounds might affect bronze but not brass?

Anyway, before saying in other threads that some of the posts here are wrong...make sure yours are right! I'm not trying to be condascending.

If i was a betting man, i'd possibly go for TRZ...since that is approved, by volvo, for the M56 gearbox, which is at least in the correct range.

Nobody so far has convinced me that theres an elf oil thats confirmed suitable at all. I'd stick with Millers, but for you boys who maybe can't get it, i'd suggest some more research yet!

[JohnTurbo]

http://www.mbfanatics.org/forum/index.p ... topic=3352

Royal Purple?

Red Line?

TRJ?

[heavend]

I stand corrected - my brain wanted to see bronze in the data sheets, because I'd love there to be a choice of oils. As you'll see from my earlier postings, I advocate the Volvo oil. In any case, it's the only one I could actually get in this part of the world. (Apart from the Amsoil, which was prohibitively expensive. The Volvo product even comes measured out in the right quantity - 3.4 litres)
I really don't want to hear of anyone wrecking their gearbox through ignorance or misinformation. I've replaced two boxes in others' cars for that very reason.
Surely there has been enough written for folk to be aware of the issue, and to take care with their oil choice.
Thanks again for pointing out my error.
d.

[buddax]

Just for the fun of it, i could find out what type of oil we put on these gearboxes at work. And ask the old mechanics if there was ever a problem with bronze parts desolving in the past, as im sure there would have been a notic from Volvo about it if it where a problem.

[shimon340]

just need to find out who manufacturers the oil for volvo....

[muddyfox470]

Where can you get the Millers TRX Hi-Synth from?

I've searched online quickly and both places come to about £35 inc postage (10quid for p+p )

shimon, joe seemed to get the closest here: http://volvo480.dragons.org.uk/forum/vi ... illers+trx

Also found this link to latest RRP from Miller ... seems quite expensive and no word of the 80W90 hi-synth stuff :s

[Melvin480]

The closest I have found is Gearlube RPC 75W/80W from Kroon Oil. Seems to be similar to the specifications given in the link in the previous post. The only thing I can't find is, if it is safe for use with bronze parts.

http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/products/ca ... c-75w-80w/

[muddyfox470]

Now you've got me going. there is a local manufacturer of Oil, Morris Lubricants.

I rang up their technical department and they said the following oil is "Bronze Safe" - he said none of the products in the oil should cause any problems. The oil in question is FS75W90

Could you just check the data sheet for me please

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/image ... ss%206.pdf

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/

Just found the following:

classification subdivides all transmission oils into 6 classes:

* API GL-1, oils for light conditions. They consist of base oils without additives. Sometimes they contain small amounts of antioxidizing additives, corrosion inhibitors, depresants and antifoam additives. API GL-1 oils are designed for spiral-bevel, worm gears and manual transmissions without synchronizers in trucks and farming machines.
* API GL-2, oils for moderate conditions. They contain antiwear additives and are designed for worm gears. Recommended for proper lubrication of tractor and farming machine transmissions.
* API GL-3, oils for moderate conditions. Contain up to 2.7% antiwear additives. Designed for lubricating bevel and other gears of truck transmissions. Not recommended for hypoid gears.
* API GL-4, oils for various conditions - light to heavy. They contain up to 4.0% effective antiscuffing additives. Designed for bevel and hypoid gears which have small displacement of axes, the gearboxes of trucks, and axle units. Recommended for non-synchronized gearboxes of US trucks, tractors and buses and for main and other gears of all vehicles. These oils are basic for synchronized gearboxes, especially in Europe.
* API GL-5, oils for severe conditions. They contain up to 6.5% effective antiscuffing additives. The general application of oils in this class are for hypoid gears having significant displacement of axes. They are recommended as universal oils to all other units of mechanical transmission (except gearboxes). Oils in this class, which have special approval of vehicle manufacturers, can be used in synchronized manual gearboxes only. API GL-5 oils can be used in limited slip differentials if they correspond to the requirements of specification MIL-L-2105D or ZF TE-ML-05. In this case the designation of class will be another, for example API GL-5+ or API GL-5 LS.
* API GL-6, oils for very heavy conditions (high speeds of sliding and significant shock loadings). They contain up to 10% high performance antiscuffing additives. They are designed for hypoid gears with significant displacement of axes. Class API GL-6 is not applied any more as it is considered that class API GL-5 well enough meets the most severe requirements.

Following on from this, just rang up Millers Oil, and they said there is only one oil they can recommend for the Manual Volvo 480 (1993)

Thats the EP GL5 75W80 - he should be sending me a spec sheet soon.

The spec sheet is here: http://www.youshare.com/Guest/42d73722a977f8cf.pdf.html it seems to agree with what Ettore Bugatti has put below

[Ettore Bugatti]

In the owners manual of 1989:
SAE 75 temperature range -30 till 20 degrees Celcius
SAE 80 temperature range -10 till 40 degrees Celcius
Quality: GL-4
API: MIL-L-2105

That's for the M53 and M54 gearboxes.

I think Volvo wrote this with monograde oils in their mind.

From what I can find on the internet Mil-l-2105 is a military performance level equal to GL-4.

I still states that ELF TransELf TRJ 75W80 is the oil too have
http://www.renault-bg.com/site/images/M ... orosti.pdf
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/ ... 1/1075.pdf
Is API GL5 too with MIL-L-2105C

[muddyfox470]

In the owners manual of 1989:
SAE 75 temperature range -30 till 20 degrees Celcius
SAE 80 temperature range -10 till 40 degrees Celcius
Quality: GL-4
API: MIL-L-2105

That's for the M53 and M54 gearboxes.

I think Volvo wrote this with monograde oils in their mind.

From what I can find on the internet Mil-l-2105 is a military performance level equal to GL-4.

I still states that ELF TransELf TRJ 75W80 is the oil too have
http://www.renault-bg.com/site/images/M ... orosti.pdf
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/ ... 1/1075.pdf
Is API GL5 too with MIL-L-2105C

What page were the details for that oil on. I've looked in my 1993 manual and all it says is the volvo part number and see volvo specification :s

Does anyone have any idea which would be the best oil to use? This Morris oil seems to pass all the grades, and the millers oil the guy from millers recommended is hard to get hold of and he recommended getting the 75W80 over the 75W90. I'm just confused.

[Ettore Bugatti]

http://volvo480.northernscum.org.uk/fil ... manual.pdf
page 89 (91 in pdf)

http://volvo480.northernscum.org.uk/fil ... 0_6_86.pdf
page 83 (81 in pdf)

At some time Volvo did changed the manual and stated that the oil should be replaced with Volvo oil. Probably from then Volvo started using full synthetic oil in the gearboxes.

It seems to me that 75W90 has a wider temperature range then 75W80, so that can't be hurting either?

Another link:
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthrea ... 698&page=2

BTW The TransELF TRX is the heavy duty variant for 'racecars'
and the transELF TRJ is more for general use.
Linkerthalink:
http://www.lubadmin.com//Restitution.as ... rametre1=7

[muddyfox470]

http://volvo480.northernscum.org.uk/fil ... manual.pdf
page 89 (91 in pdf)

http://volvo480.northernscum.org.uk/fil ... 0_6_86.pdf
page 83 (81 in pdf)

At some time Volvo did changed the manual and stated that the oil should be replaced with Volvo oil. Probably from then Volvo started using full synthetic oil in the gearboxes.

It seems to me that 75W90 has a wider temperature range then 75W80, so that can't be hurting either?

Another link:
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthrea ... 698&page=2

BTW The TransELF TRX is the heavy duty variant for 'racecars'
and the transELF TRJ is more for general use.
Linkerthalink:http://www.lubadmin.com//Restitution.as ... rametre1=7

Cheers for that.

The manual looks a fair bit different from mine. Was interesting to read "Treating the door seals with talcum powder before the winter will keep them in good condition"

I don't know why but things like that make the 480 seem less like a machine

Cheers for that I guess that Morris oil is a good choice then, I'll see what sort of price I can get it for from my local garage place.

[Ettore Bugatti]

The manual looks a fair bit different from mine. Was interesting to read "Treating the door seals with talcum powder before the winter will keep them in good condition"

I don't know why but things like that make the 480 seem less like a machine

480's have feelings too...

[gltease]

The manual looks a fair bit different from mine. Was interesting to read "Treating the door seals with talcum powder before the winter will keep them in good condition"

I don't know why but things like that make the 480 seem less like a machine

480's have feelings too...

Not forgetting to read it a bedtime story !

[muddyfox470]

Just a note the Volvo Part number my manual recommends is 3343922-5

Mine is a 1993 2.0i ES

Arghhhhhh never realised it could be so hard to find the right oil, and I don't want to take the advice some retard guy behind the shop counter. When I rang up the technical guys they were rather unsure of the term "Bronze Safe"

Seems that Joe is right here as the part number has since changed to 1161681 though the price is £41.20 exc VAT

This Morris lubricant states GL-5 and MIL-2105 compliance:
http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/image ... ss%208.pdf

Just been on the phone to Renault, they keep the oil in stock, but you need to bring a container to pump it into. Cost for the Tranself TRJ 75W80 is £6.52 + VAT

Ok well I went back to Renault with the renault engine numbe F3r (but they need the following 3 numbers) - mine is a B20F. Anywho they said it's just best to get the Volvo oil if there is any uncertainty.

However...
morrislubricants techie guy seemed much more in the know, he said don't use GL5 oils for bronze parts. So he recommended me their SS80W - it's a very light oil and is rated at API GL 1/2/3/4. That came through from their automated system.

This compares with Millers Oil recommending EP75W/80 hmmmm.

Anyway I'm a bit confused by all this and will just go check see how much the SS80W is, also they all seem confused when I call it 75Watt rather than 75'W' [the W does stand for watt relating for the power required to start in temperatures right?]

[chriskay]

[the W does stand for watt relating for the power required to start in temperatures right?][/b][/b]

I always thought the W stood for winter.
As far as Morris's oils are concerned, the local main Volvo dealer in Shrewsbury uses their engine oil; not sure about gearbox oil.

Cheers, Chris.

[muddyfox470]

Nice to see another Shrewsbury member, you must have been lurking to have that many posts and for me not to notice it!

Volvo will only use the partnumbered oil (1161681) for the gearbox oil, engine oil is a bit easier me thinks - especially after spending so much time chasing all this up.

However after speaking to Renault it seems they use mostly Morris' oil except for when Morris' don't make taht sort of oil.

But the guy at tech support (Morris Lubricants) said "you don't want that [EP75W80], it's GL-5" so he put it all through on the system and it came up as the SS 80W http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/image ... ss%208.pdf

So we'll see how it goes
I'm gonna let the BT garage do it, whilst they sort out the rear link bars.

Found this on the bronze synchro components (on about a different gearbox but it makes sense) taken from here

It's a big deal to _not_ use a GL-5 oil in the trans because they 1)
don't (usually) have the friction modifiers to make the synchros
operate at their best, and 2) usually have sulfur compounds that tend
to "eat" the synchros' metallurgy.

OTOH, it is also generally a bad thing to use a GL-4 oil in diffs
becaise they _don't_ (usually) have the shockproofing chemistry
(that's the sulfur compounds) the GL-5 spec calls for.

Also this: from here THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT

Gear Oil

Gear oil viscosity is measured at 150 F vs. 210 F for motor oil. Therefore, 40 W motor oil is the same as
95 W gear oil.

Gear oil is acidic, motor oil is alkiline. Gear oil needs very high wear protoection - Extreme Pressure
(marked as EP). Therefore, it has a very high sulfer and phospor content. Sulfur and Phosphate reactions
start at a lower temperature, and Gear Oil has much more additive than motor oil. This additive is
corrosive to copper bearings and bronze synchro rings.

Positraction additives are Friction modifiers - make the base oil much more slippery. They coat the metal
surfaces, and prevent the stick/slip mode of operation, preventing shudder, and causes smoother take-up.
Friction Modifiers may detract from EP characteristics.

Friction modifiers cause smooth take-up of Limited slip units. For track racing, FM is probably
undesireable, and immediate take-up is more important. For Street, FM is usually reccomended for more
comfortable operation.

Gear oils decompose at lower temperature, usually 250 F.

Gear Lubrication Ratings

GL-1 No Additives
GL-2
GL-3
GL-4 Suitable for light duty hypoid sets
GL-5 Has lots of sulfer - Heavy duty hypoids
GL-6

Hypoid type gear sets have a sliding rather than rolling action, and therefore require much greater wear
protection.

GL-5 Should be used in rear differentials.

GL-6 is a heavier weight GL-5. Used for heavy trucks and Tow Vehicles.

So after all this messing around it is best to ensure you are getting GL-4 grade oil, most off the shelf stuff is GL-5. So be careful! However if Volvo's own stuff is GL-5 it is confusing me a little, especially saying that people have confirmed the presence of the Bronze Synchro Rings... I think thats me about done now, SS 80W (GL1/2/3/4) here I come.

I think the confusion comes from that GL-5 can be non-corrosive if it has "special" additives, but you can only believe it if it specifies explicitly in the specification, otherwise "standard" GL-5 seems to have sulphur additives that attacks the bronze, so be careful.

[chriskay]

Actually, all this is irrelevant to me; mine's an auto box, but I've found it interesting.
@muddyfox; mine's the same colour as yours, but an 'L' reg. turbo.

Cheers, Chris.

[muddyfox470]

Actually, all this is irrelevant to me; mine's an auto box, but I've found it interesting.
@muddyfox; mine's the same colour as yours, but an 'L' reg. turbo.

Cheers, Chris.

Just a note as well you are right W does stand for Winter in oil gradings

I'll try look out for you, however I'm often in Durham so my car is often parked away.

[Ettore Bugatti]

Strange thing that the higher GL rating isn't compatible for lower ratings.

What gearbox do you have, M5X?

This is btw the spec sheet of the TransELF TRJ
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/ ... 1/1075.pdf
Safe for brass synchromesh rings, 75W-80, and GL4+

Brass isn't bronze, right?