not starting 1.7 ES Auto

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2660
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not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:06 pm

I bought my 2nd 480 last week. It was driven to my home and I moved it around the drive, but it failed to start the following morning (Thursday). On Saturday I removed and charged the battery. On Sunday I replaced the now fully charged battery but it still wouldn't start. No indication of anything happening when the key was turned, no dimming of dash lights , no starter motor sounds. I locked the passenger door on the key, (no central locking) closed the bonnet and moved back to the drivers (right) door. When i opened the driver's door the alarm sounded (horn). I unlocked the door on the key, (it actually wasn't locked but I went through the process.) which turned the alarm off. So I got in and tried to start it. After a couple of churns it fired and I was able to drive away and fill it up. I was away for a couple of days and had similar issues on Wed when I returned, repeating the process I got it started again, and used it to commute to work ( 8 miles each way) on Thursday and Friday without any issues. After returning from a pub meal I parked it up and locked it. Today it didn't start again...... and hasn't responded to the process of locking the passenger door, activating and deactivating the alarm on the driver's door and then starting.
I'm thinking the alarm may be remaining on which might prevent power to the starter?
I haven't taken the battery off yet this weekend.

Anyone any suggestions on where I might look to try and resolve this?

Dave :( :( :(
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

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jamescarruthers
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by jamescarruthers » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:20 pm

I don’t really know but based on it being an automatic you have an extra “start inhibitor” which stops you starting the car in anything but Park or Neutral. If you are in these positions, try wiggling the gear selector around a bit while keeping the key turned to the start position. This would prove of the inhibitor switch needs adjusted a bit.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

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dcwalker
480 Is my middle name
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by dcwalker » Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:23 pm

I may be wrong, but my initial thought is that the alarm is a red herring. There is no immobiliser on these cars, just an alarm, so no reason why the alarm being on should actually stop it starting.

I discovered long ago that if you have unlocked just the passenger door, or opened on central locking, then removed the battery and then locked or unlocked doors individually it can confuse the CEM. Often you need to lock and unlock on the central locking to allow the 2 doors to get back into proper coordination, and sometimes they don't and the alarm goes off.

Switching the alarm off by "unlocking" the door works on the micro-switch, hence it can control the alarm even though from a mechanical perspective the door is unlocked.

I chased a similar problem of random non-starting in the previous 440. I changed starter-motor, battery leads, ignition pack...all to no avail.

I would suggest first checking that the battery is holding sufficient voltage to actually start the car. Also are the connections to it sound? And are the other earth strap connections (inner wing and gearbox) sound?

If all ok there, then check the two relays under the dashboard on drivers side - one on a white base, one on a black. One is the main ignition system relay, the other is the fuel pump relay. If they are loose or failing you can get this problem. When you turn to ignition position II but the car doesn't start, can you hear the fuel pump buzz? You will find a couple of identical relays in the relay box that serve other functions - you can "borrow" these to use as test alternatives if you don't have any spares.

Another weak spot is the connection to the back of the ignition switch. Does wiggling the ignition key about a bit make a difference? If you remove the cowling, you'll find a black multi-plug on the white plastic end of the ignition barrel. Usually held firm by a cable tie (!!). Check it isn't loose; cut the cable tie, remove and clean the connections, and replace (complete with new ties to ensure it is firmly home).

James's suggestion about the start inhibitor is also a good one; wiggling the gear stick ought to show if this is the problem - also worth seeing if the starting problem occurs only in P, or in N, or both.

Let us know how you get on and we can go from there...

Good luck!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

2660
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Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:32 pm

jamescarruthers wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:20 pm
I don’t really know but based on it being an automatic you have an extra “start inhibitor” which stops you starting the car in anything but Park or Neutral. If you are in these positions, try wiggling the gear selector around a bit while keeping the key turned to the start position. This would prove of the inhibitor switch needs adjusted a bit.
Thanks James. I was aware that the auto needed to be in P or N to start and have tried both positions. Wiggling the shift is an option I haven't tried - so that's a tomorrow test prior to another battery charge....
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

2660
480 Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:44 pm

dcwalker wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:23 pm
I may be wrong, but my initial thought is that the alarm is a red herring. There is no immobiliser on these cars, just an alarm, so no reason why the alarm being on should actually stop it starting.

I discovered long ago that if you have unlocked just the passenger door, or opened on central locking, then removed the battery and then locked or unlocked doors individually it can confuse the CEM. Often you need to lock and unlock on the central locking to allow the 2 doors to get back into proper coordination, and sometimes they don't and the alarm goes off.

Switching the alarm off by "unlocking" the door works on the micro-switch, hence it can control the alarm even though from a mechanical perspective the door is unlocked.

I chased a similar problem of random non-starting in the previous 440. I changed starter-motor, battery leads, ignition pack...all to no avail.

I would suggest first checking that the battery is holding sufficient voltage to actually start the car. Also are the connections to it sound? And are the other earth strap connections (inner wing and gearbox) sound?

If all ok there, then check the two relays under the dashboard on drivers side - one on a white base, one on a black. One is the main ignition system relay, the other is the fuel pump relay. If they are loose or failing you can get this problem. When you turn to ignition position II but the car doesn't start, can you hear the fuel pump buzz? You will find a couple of identical relays in the relay box that serve other functions - you can "borrow" these to use as test alternatives if you don't have any spares.

Another weak spot is the connection to the back of the ignition switch. Does wiggling the ignition key about a bit make a difference? If you remove the cowling, you'll find a black multi-plug on the white plastic end of the ignition barrel. Usually held firm by a cable tie (!!). Check it isn't loose; cut the cable tie, remove and clean the connections, and replace (complete with new ties to ensure it is firmly home).

James's suggestion about the start inhibitor is also a good one; wiggling the gear stick ought to show if this is the problem - also worth seeing if the starting problem occurs only in P, or in N, or both.

Let us know how you get on and we can go from there...

Good luck!

David
Thanks David. A lot there to work through! I'd read (in this forum) that there isn't an immobiliser on this model, but really the alarm / deativate process has appeared to work twice and so I was beginning to think there would be a connection. Battery voltage appears OK on the voltmeter in the dash, but I know that may not mean it has enough to start the car - although I have a recent invooice (Dec 21 or Feb22) showing a new battery and also (the other invoice) specialist work on the gearbox - both of which influenced my decision to buy! Battery connections look OK but if I take it off again tomorrow I'll give them a deeper check and I'll check the other 2. After that I'll move on to the relay /ignition switch options.

Thanks again and I'll post the outcome(s) over the next couple of days.

Dave
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

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dcwalker
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by dcwalker » Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:03 pm

Great stuff Dave

I should have added that on the 440 the problem was one of the relays packing up, so hopefully you'll end up finding its something amazingly simple!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

2660
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Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:31 am

David / James
It looks like it's the auto box start inhibitor after all. It didn't solve the issue initially but I found that deoressing the button in the handle did enable the car to start. (Un)fortunately it hasn't failed to start since then so not be able to prove it by repeating the process! AS it happens the car was serviced in Nottingham and there were a couple of advisories on the last MOT; so I've visited the garage (independent Volvo specialist) and booked it in for the advisories and asked them to check / adjust the start inhibitor on the box. I'm gathering a list of job that will need to be done over the summer, from a new window regulator (supplied with the car) for the passenger door to info centre checks - apparently I have a perpetual range of 620 miles and an average and nstant fuel consumption of 99.9 miles / gallon..... :D :D :D
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1397
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by Alan 480 » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:25 pm

2660 wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:31 am
David / James
It looks like it's the auto box start inhibitor after all. It didn't solve the issue initially but I found that deoressing the button in the handle did enable the car to start. (Un)fortunately it hasn't failed to start since then so not be able to prove it by repeating the process! AS it happens the car was serviced in Nottingham and there were a couple of advisories on the last MOT; so I've visited the garage (independent Volvo specialist) and booked it in for the advisories and asked them to check / adjust the start inhibitor on the box. I'm gathering a list of job that will need to be done over the summer, from a new window regulator (supplied with the car) for the passenger door to info centre checks - apparently I have a perpetual range of 620 miles and an average and nstant fuel consumption of 99.9 miles / gallon..... :D :D :D
inhibitor switch is only for jessies, short section of wire and you are sorted :hopping:

but good to know figured out the root cause....
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

2660
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:09 pm

Well the problems continue. Over the last couple of weeks (since getting the 480 back from the garage (there's another story there, it was in for 2 weeks....) I'm finding I can start it with a fully charged battery but over a day or so of no use it won't start. Start up checks appear ok but nothing happens when the key is turned to start. Lights pop up etc but no attempt to turn the starter motor. Gear stick waggling also fails. If left for a while / day find that the battery is flat and needs a charge. So I'm now on the check all the possible items that could be causing a battery drain,so in no particular order I'm checking - interior lights / radio (aftermarket Alpine model)and using a multimeter to to check for drain including pulling the fuses one at a time to check what effect each has on any drain reading. I've been reading other post on battery drain on here and othr sites. so that's my evenings work list over the next couple of weeks! :rofl: :rofl:
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

jifflemon
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by jifflemon » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:54 pm

flattening a fully charged battery, over the course of a day is a fairly impressive thing to do.
Firstly, what battery has it got?
Ideally it should be either an 027 or 075, which are are typically around 60ah.

So to flatten it in, say 10 hours, that'd be a 6AMP constant drain! :shock:

Now, the other possibility, is that it's either not in the best shape, or its NOT getting fully charged once flattened.
An alternator isn't designed to charge a flat battery - that's what battery chargers are for.

2660
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:51 pm

According to the history file there was an investigation on battery drain in Dec 21 which resulted in a new battery (this was one of the plus points when I bought the car at the beginning of April!). According to the invoice the replacement battery was an 027 and that's what the ID label on the battery also says. It's just finished charging so will be going back on the car tomorrow so i can start the checks for drain. Also on that invoice was 'remove and clean D+ and B+ connections on alternator'. There's an earlier note that a reconditioned alternator was fitted in Feb 2017. When running the dash voltmeter appears to run at around 15V. Typical scenario is charge battery / refit /start /go to work / start /go home (trip of around 8 miles each way)/leave overnight/ 2nd day repeat of 1st day / 3rd morning won't start. There may have been odd shopping trips on day1 or day2 so a couple of extra stop /start occasions are also possible. This isn't a daily user so I might not use it for several days after a charge and 'day 1' run to confirm it's OK.
So faulty battery is also a possibility. There is an isolator on the battery so I plan to use that over the days it will take me to check all the obvious possible drain issues. I have a possible visit from an autoelectrician in the next couple of weeks as he's coming to my neighnour to work on one of his vehicles, so I'm only looking for the obvious issues myself and I'll leave fuller checks (unless I manage to find something!) for that visit if necessary.
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1397
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by Alan 480 » Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:05 am

2660 wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:51 pm
According to the history file there was an investigation on battery drain in Dec 21 which resulted in a new battery (this was one of the plus points when I bought the car at the beginning of April!). According to the invoice the replacement battery was an 027 and that's what the ID label on the battery also says. It's just finished charging so will be going back on the car tomorrow so i can start the checks for drain. Also on that invoice was 'remove and clean D+ and B+ connections on alternator'. There's an earlier note that a reconditioned alternator was fitted in Feb 2017. When running the dash voltmeter appears to run at around 15V. Typical scenario is charge battery / refit /start /go to work / start /go home (trip of around 8 miles each way)/leave overnight/ 2nd day repeat of 1st day / 3rd morning won't start. There may have been odd shopping trips on day1 or day2 so a couple of extra stop /start occasions are also possible. This isn't a daily user so I might not use it for several days after a charge and 'day 1' run to confirm it's OK.
So faulty battery is also a possibility. There is an isolator on the battery so I plan to use that over the days it will take me to check all the obvious possible drain issues. I have a possible visit from an autoelectrician in the next couple of weeks as he's coming to my neighnour to work on one of his vehicles, so I'm only looking for the obvious issues myself and I'll leave fuller checks (unless I manage to find something!) for that visit if necessary.
other leccy gurus might have different views but
check voltage of 'cahrged battery', usually about 12 -13V
when it is running check the BATTERY voltage at the terminals, that will confirm the smoke is getting from the alternator TO the battery, not just showing on the voltmeter? usually smidge over 13V, 15 seems 'high' ?
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

2660
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:49 am

other leccy gurus might have different views but
check voltage of 'cahrged battery', usually about 12 -13V
when it is running check the BATTERY voltage at the terminals, that will confirm the smoke is getting from the alternator TO the battery, not just showing on the voltmeter? usually smidge over 13V, 15 seems 'high' ?

Hi Alan Thanks for that. I'll recheck the voltage reading later. I've put the battery back on earlier today and it started 1st turn. So I moved it to get access to the boot. On opening the boot and releasing the luggage cover the light was on, as expected. So test 1 was leave the cover open, close the boot and see what happened. Light stayed on. Over several open / close boot attempts it refused to go off. So I've removed the bulb...About 2 hrs later I started it again 1st turn, and I moved it back to its parking spot. I'm planning to leave it alone until tomorrow evening to see if this simple issue is the culprit! :) :)
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1397
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by Alan 480 » Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:50 pm

2660 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:49 am

Hi Alan Thanks for that. I'll recheck the voltage reading later. I've put the battery back on earlier today and it started 1st turn. So I moved it to get access to the boot. On opening the boot and releasing the luggage cover the light was on, as expected. So test 1 was leave the cover open, close the boot and see what happened. Light stayed on. Over several open / close boot attempts it refused to go off. So I've removed the bulb...About 2 hrs later I started it again 1st turn, and I moved it back to its parking spot. I'm planning to leave it alone until tomorrow evening to see if this simple issue is the culprit! :) :)
that would be a 'quick fix. .. ..
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

2660
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Posts: 11
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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:32 pm

Hi Alan (and everyone else)
Long time no reply, but have had life beyond 480 to sort out!
On the 480 front I couldn't identify the battery drain culprit and was getting very frustrated especially as the info centre has now disappered and the dash lights have also faded away, all of which I attributed to the electrical fault and so was adding to my frustration......The Sept came along and it was MOT time. When the car was in the garage in June I'd arranged to have a new left side window reguator installed, at MOT time, as it wasn't operational when I bought the car. I have had the car back for a couple of weeks and have had several spells of 3 or 4 days non-use, but on every occasion it's started after the spell and I haven't yet needed to charge the battery. So it's looking like the defective regulator may have had a major part in draining the battery (I thought it had been removed, but it appears it wasn't - I hadn't takrn the door card off to check! :D :D :lol: :lol: )
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1397
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by Alan 480 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:43 am

2660 wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:32 pm
So it's looking like the defective regulator may have had a major part in draining the battery (I thought it had been removed, but it appears it wasn't - I hadn't takrn the door card off to check! :D :D :lol: :lol: )
at least it is a plausible option, in effect the motor is always 'on' although I'd have assumed when the ignition is off then that would have been isolated?
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

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Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:42 pm

I'd have thought the same Allan, but the window can be operated to close when the ignition is off, I think? :nuts: :nuts: If that's the case then presumably the circuit remains live for a time after ignition off and if the motor was faulty it maybe didn't time off? No idea really, much prefer to leave electrics to someone who knows them better than me :D . Haven't tried to start it since last Friday, planning to try and get to work in it tomorrow, so hope it starts this time!
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1397
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by Alan 480 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:44 am

2660 wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:42 pm
I'd have thought the same Allan, but the window can be operated to close when the ignition is off, I think? :nuts: :nuts: If that's the case then presumably the circuit remains live for a time after ignition off and if the motor was faulty it maybe didn't time off? No idea really, much prefer to leave electrics to someone who knows them better than me :D . Haven't tried to start it since last Friday, planning to try and get to work in it tomorrow, so hope it starts this time!
true, turning & holding the key will force the windows (& sunroof ) to close, forgot that option
Alan

480 ES 2litre x 2 (1 x Normal, 1 x 'Celebration' ? ), C30 1.8ES, SS1

2660
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Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: not starting 1.7 ES Auto

Post by 2660 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:25 pm

spoke too soon...failed to start this morning, so battery off to charge tonight and back on tomorrow night ready for Thursday trip to work.
F 435 TRK 1.7 ES auto
Previously 2.0 ES Auto
Living in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire

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