Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

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aidanmorris
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Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:59 pm

Sods law has struck with a vengeance and my starter motor has failed on one of the few occasions I’ve driven up to London rather than getting the train.

Nearest garage has quoted me £334 to replace and I’m struggling to justify the spend.

So the £300 question (assuming second hand starter motor) is, how difficult a job is this for a willing but not overly experienced DIYer?

From reading some other posts it would seem that the first thing I need to confirm is how easy is it to do this from above? (I’m ruling it even trying if it’s going to require jacks and axle stands as there is currently about 140miles between me and my shed where that sort of stuff lives and I don’t fancy lugging it up on the train!)

So, assuming it is possible to come in from above, my next questions are:

1. Do I have to remove any other bits to get access? (I can see the starter is below a heat shield (is that just held on by the one bolt?) but obviously even with that off I’ve got a lot of exhaust manifold between me and my goal – does any of this need to come off?)
2. If some of this does need shifting how easy is this?
3. Once revealed is it a relatively straightforward job to swap out the motor?
4. Do I need anything special in the way of tools? (I’ve got a decent socket set, various extension bars and a breaker bar for hard to shift bolts – reckon that’ll do me?)

Finally, I've found a second hand starter on ebay for £25 inc postage but if anyone has a decent unit (must have good teeth!) and can offer me a bit of a saving I'd rather line the pocket of a fellow forum member.

Thanks in advance
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

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brinkie
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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by brinkie » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:36 pm

Starter motors are one of the easiest parts of the 480 to come by, since they are the same on millions of Renaults. I wouldn't go for second hand.
Cheap on fleabay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Volvo-480-E-S ... 746/i.html

If you have a Turbo it is quite an operation to get to the starter, but for non turbo cars you can put the car on axle stands, remove the air box to get to the starter from above (using tools with extenders to reach all the bolts) and from under the car you can remove the starter.

Isn't it easier to get a tow and then start the car? I know it is bad for the catalytic converter but it wil save you lots of trouble.
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i, 1999 Volvo S70 2.5 Europa, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum

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dcwalker
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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by dcwalker » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:29 am

It is easy enough to do, as Robert says, but you will need to get under the car to change it. Did mine on my GT a couple of months back when it failed on me - huge range of starter motors on the market for a huge range of prices; I'd agree it isn't worth a second hand one.

I appreciate you are a long way from home but £334 is a huge bill if you are a willing DIY'er as you say - it is a simple job. Mine failed only a few miles away so I got a tow to start it (not ideal but a one-off) and get it home. It would probably be well worth your while tow-starting it to drive back to Somerset (just don't switch off/stall it on the way ;) and doing the job yourself.

Obviously, though, I do appreciate that at times circumstances can dictate actions!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras & 2007 V50 SE Sport
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

aidanmorris
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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:45 pm

Thanks guys. Sounds like I'm going to have to get it home. First up a few trips back and forth with a can to the petrol station first (sods law dictates its almost empty) and then a bump start. If only it was like my old Land Rover and had a crank handle - that's come to my rescue on a number of occasions!
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

aidanmorris
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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:31 pm

After a jump start I managed to repatriate my Celeb back to Somerset and this morning I set about replacing the starter motor. I got it up on ramps in order to have access from above and below but I reckon you could probably do it all from above and without having to remove anything apart from the starter heat shield.

Anyway, new starter installed and the moment of truth - turn the key - and absolutely nothing!

So looks like I have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

I borrowed a multimeter and didn't seem to be getting any volts at the solenoid tab when the key was turned to position III so I'm guessing I've got a wiring problem somewhere but I haven't a clue where to go next.

Is there anything between the ignition and the solenoid that could have blown? i.e. fuse, relay?

If anyone has any ideas/suggestions I'd be immensely grateful!

Cheers

Aidan
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by Ade » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Can't say for definite on a later car but I know that on my '90 turbo, there's no fuse or anything between ignition barrel and switched live on the starter solenoid so if this is the case on your car too then maybe the ignition switch is faulty? I know this because my solenoid shorted out somehow and unceremoniously cooked all the wiring near the ignition barrel. Smoke pouring from the dash is never a good sign :shock: Definitely no fuse there! I've never disconnected a battery so quickly in all my life :lol: You could wire in a push button start easy enough, even just temporarily until you find the issue. As long as you can get a voltage to the solenoid, the starter will throw the engine over.

As for the starter being NO fun on a turbo... I concur, with enthusiasm. Driveshaft out and all sorts :eek:
O.C. 480 D.

aidanmorris
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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:28 pm

I did think it might be the ignition and had a play with the wiring on the ignition barrel. I put a wire between red (center) and the other wires in turn - white and grey seemed to do the normal Stage I and II of the ignition but when I put it to white-blue nothing except an audible click coming from under the glove box - that made me think relay?

Does anyone have a 480 Celebration wiring diagram. My HAynes manual is very vague on anything post 1992.
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by Ade » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:25 pm

That's interesting, perhaps there is a difference in wiring then and there is a relay in the equation on your car. On mine there is definitely no clicking from anywhere and certainly no relay. I guess you could check your ignition switch with a multimeter and if it checks out ok, perhaps the easiest option would be to just wire in a new circuit with/without a relay depending on your personal preference. I guess wiring in with a fuse and a relay wouldn't be a bad shout. Very easily done. You might want to make sure that the starter works by hotwiring it first. Just take a live from the battery and put it to the solenoid on the starter and it should go.
O.C. 480 D.

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jifflemon » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:43 pm

Couple of thoughts from me:

1) Have you tested the starter independently from the ignition switch? Take +ive feed from the battery and try the solenoid. (usual disclaimers about having the car switched off, out of gear etc). If the starter doesn't spin over now, its dead. (and yes, new products can be DOA!). Also check there isn't two terminals on the solenoid - as its shared with the Renault range, some of those needed a ballast output from the solenoid.

2) Is there any third party alarm systems on the car? Back in the day, cutting the feeds to starter and ignition/fuel pump relay were standard practice.

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:01 am

Thanks guys. Stupidly I didn't test the starter motor before fitting it. I was all set to take it out again when I thought about checking the volts at the solenoid with the ignition at the point it should go live. The fact that I seemed to get 0 volts made me stop and think it might be something else. (Also the fact that when I then fixed a battery up to the 'old' starter motor it seemed to work OK.)

As for the starter motor type the photo below shows the new (recon) and the old. Both were Valeo and the only thing that seemed different about the recon unit was that it had a spade connector for the solenoid where as the existing one had a nut. (I drilled a 4mm hole in the spade so I could use the existing connector.)

Image
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jifflemon » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:51 am

Still got the old starter? Or has it gone back for exchange?

If you've still got it, check that with a set of jump leads (negative clamped to body, positive to solenoid terminal and bridge across to the spade).

Can you get anyone else to crank whilst trying to narrow down the click under the glove box?

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by glasgowjim » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:43 pm

Look up " stone age technology " for info on a starter button .
Personally I would just run a wire to the starter motor and see what happens . if nothing then your problem lies in the starter motor. If it starts you have the choice of a starter button or delving deeper into your problem.

from an earlier post of mine..

When I had an ignition fault with one of my daughters 480's I solved it by hotwiring the ignition just put the ignition on (pos 2) and connected the solenoid to the battery and the car started. Having done that I just put a push to make switch under the dash to start car.

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:57 am

Thanks Jim, I can't find a specific post called "stone age technology" but I can see the phrase turns up in a lot of other threads so I'll have a good read through when I'm not supposed to be working!

Proper "stone age technology" though is the crank handle I use on my Land Rover which has got me out of trouble many a time! (Once in an "Ice Cold in Alex" style when I ran out of petrol on a nasty bend and had to crank it up hill to get it off the road!)

Short of fitting one on the Volvo it sounds like I need to do some more thorough diagnostics, not exactly my forte but always willing to learn, will have to wait until the weekend though.

Will keep you posted.
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jifflemon » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:12 pm

Hollar if you need any help; I'm an ex-auto electrician who used to rebuild this era of starter (and alternator) daily.

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by aidanmorris » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:33 pm

Right, I've managed to get the car started but its a "jury-rig" rather than a long term solution.

Firstly I tested the starter and proved it was fine so my problem obviously lay somewhere between the ignition and the solenoid. Given that the ignition seemed fine I thought I'd rig up a 'jump' wire between the ignition and the solenoid. Removing the air box in order to chase back the grey-white wire that goes to the solenoid I found a plug connector where I could make a connection and at the other end I simply pushed the wire into the back of the plug on the ignition barrel. Turned the key and, hey presto, finally got things fired up.

So, the problem lies somewhere between the last place I can see the thin blue-white wire that goes into the ignition and the connector on the much thicker grey-white wire about 30cm 'upstream' from the solenoid. The fact that one of these wires is much thinner than the other still suggests to me that there has to be a relay involved. Unfortunately the wiring diagrams in the Haynes manual are useless - nothing seems relevant to a 1995 480 Celebration. The nearest thing is the starter motor diagram for "480 models up to 1991" but that suggests that you've got the grey-white (thick) wire all the way. Interestingly this diagram (and the corresponding one for the 440-460) also shows the ABS 'teed' off this circuit but I'm now suspecting that everything is actually routed through the ECU and my problem lies there.

Does this ring any bells with anyone?
1967 Land Rover Series IIA SWB
1995 Volvo 480 Celebration (sold)
2003 Condor Squadra and 2008 Condor Italia (2 wheels, no engines!)

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jifflemon » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Quite possibly a relay issue - Have you been able to track down the click in the glovebox?

Relays are just switches - Using low current (and thus thin wires) to switch high current (thick wires)

If you can hear the relay click, then the low current is doing the job, So there's either a lack of power going to the relay, a break in the wire or a duff relay.

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by Alan 480 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:45 am

for info i had ONE time that the ign key didn't operate teh starter, fixed that by running a wire (with a push switch) from positive terminal of battery down to the solenoid on the starter.

this is quite handy as it means I can leave the ign OFF and spin the engine over without it pumping in fuel & firing (useful when car was laid up and didn't want to get cylinders 'wet'), just nee dto remember to leav ein neutral.

sorry doesn't help on 'click' / 'realy' issue . . . . :?
Alan

480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jamescarruthers » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:24 pm

I have been having starting mine for a while and added a relay into the trigger wire to the solenoid. That was pretty easy. Last week however it started doing the click-click thing again and then failed to turn over. I found that the fuse I had installed had blown. It was 30A!!! Far too big in the first place I thought but all I had lying around.

If the solenoid is drawing >30A, am I right in thinking that something is very wrong with it!? I think I may have burnt the start switch contacts out a bit if this has been going on for years with the click-click.

So, to stay on the "how complex" question? Can I remove my starter and pop a new solenoid on?
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jifflemon » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:14 pm

James,
Adding a relay is fairly common practice - You're reducing the current required by the ignition switch, and passing the true switching of current to the relay..
The solenoid shouldn't be pulling more than 30amp! I'm guessing the fuse was on the battery +ive terminal wiring? If you replace the fuse, does it blow it again?

You can replace the solenoid, but given how cheap a replacement starter has, I'd just swap the whole unit out.

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Re: Starter Motor Replacement - how complex?

Post by jamescarruthers » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:19 pm

Yes, the fuse is on the wire from the battery, to relay, to the solenoid. I found a 25A fuse and put it in just to try and get it moved. It did not blow this time but at least I could get it back in the garage.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

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