Help needed. No start. No spark

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jifflemon
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by jifflemon » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:30 pm

Honestly sounds like ignition relay, or the fuse next to it...

Have you located the 2 relays under the dash?

Remove one, see if you can hear the fuel pump when ignition is turned on. If you can't, you've found the fuel pump relay :D

Swap them over; It still won't start (as you've now got now fuel pump) but you can check for a 12V feed to coil or sparks from it.

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:45 am

jifflemon wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:30 pm
Honestly sounds like ignition relay, or the fuse next to it...

Have you located the 2 relays under the dash?

Remove one, see if you can hear the fuel pump when ignition is turned on. If you can't, you've found the fuel pump relay :D

Swap them over; It still won't start (as you've now got now fuel pump) but you can check for a 12V feed to coil or sparks from it.
Hello Jifflemon
Thanks again for keeping with me. I will try out the relays again. When I looked last time there are three together. Guess I just unplug each until I find the fuel pump and can work out from there which one to change.
I didn't see the fuse last time so that could be something to check? I didn't see any fuse looking things nearby though? Is it close to that block of three relays?

jifflemon
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by jifflemon » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:15 am

Three? that's a new one on me! These aren't in the relay box in scuttle, these are inside the car, almost underneath the relay box.

Head by the pedals, look up! Shall try and get a photo for you if I get a few spare mins.

travelman
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by travelman » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:39 pm

Have you checked the earth between the engine and coil.Take it off and give the ends a good clean.I had a similar problem about 2 yrs ago where I drove to a garage,turned it off and then it would not restart. Absolutely no spark at all. Had to get it dragged back home.After a lot of head scratching it turned out to be a build up of gunge on the aforesaid earthstrap. I t would be nice if it is something simple like this.

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:11 pm

Right so I have had another look at the relays (I am still seeing three) and no fuses. However I have changed them over and then rechecked the tab at the coil. That now receives a small amount of voltage around 0.06. So I then thought I would try the spark on the plug but couldn't as engine is now clicking as I think the battery is dead. Hopefully this is a positive sign now there is some reading at the coil? Guessing because the battery is low is why its only getting small voltage. So am charging the battery now then will try again. Would love to put on some pictures but I can't get the post image site to work. If anyone is interested I can post pictures via email.
Oh and I checked the earth on the coil and it seems to be earthed on its own support bolt which seems fairly clean. But cleaned the earth joint anyway.

dcwalker
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dcwalker » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:03 pm

Sounds like life somewhere!

I too am intrigued by the 3 relays - I have a GT and there are only 2. Don't worry about not finding the fuel pump fuse - despite what the book says it isn't in fact up there at all!!

Quick silly question - you haven't got a remote to lock/unlock with have you? Only ever an option on 480, but standard on some high spec late 440 & 460. The immobiliser system with it can be a total pain as I have learnt recently - hence the question.

Anyway, if there are no errors codes it may be they were lost when battery was dead/disconnected or else it means look elsewhere, which means the relays, HT leads, distributor etc.

Keep us posted - we WILL sort it!!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT (plus 2004 C70 Collection & 1995 440 ES)
Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:11 am

Really confused now. Battery was fully charged this morning at 12.6. Put it in the car turned ignition on it went down to 11.48 does that mean the battery is dead? I still went to check power to the coil. I took out each relay in but with all of them out I still was receiving small amounts of voltage to the coil! There is a red, white and black backing to each of the relays. The only thing I can think of is maybe I am not be getting a proper reading if the battery is is nearly completely dead.

dcwalker
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dcwalker » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:35 pm

Okay - bear with me while I back-track here because, as you say, this is getting confusing...

11.48 won't start the car, and an instant drop like that doesn't sound healthy. Do you have any idea from either looking at it or from any documentation you may have got with the car how old the battery is?

I am intrigued by these 3 relays - the white and black ones are the fuel pump and ignition system. The red one is a mystery unless it is one of the additional ones added as part of the immobiliser system - hence my previous question: so can you answer my question about the remote/immobiliser?

When you say the car doesn't start, what exactly doesn't happen? By which I mean does the starter motor turn over? Can you hear the fuel pump (it should buzz when you turn the key to position 2)? Or does the car just "click"? Or is it absolutely dead?

I know you are swapping relays over but don't rule out more than one being faulty (I recently made that mistake and it took me quite some time to wake up to it!). Might be worth testing the circuits by bridging relay terminals - we should be able to guide you with that if needed.

BTW, pleased to learn that your GT is green - join the club! Between us that means we can now account for about 5 green GTs, which isn't bad given there were only 250 GTs in total and more were red than green...

David
Current: 1994 480 GT (plus 2004 C70 Collection & 1995 440 ES)
Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

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dragonflyjewels
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dragonflyjewels » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:17 pm

Well we can account for 5 running green GTs but then there is also our breaker, Junk.
Not long after we spent a considerable amount on putting Sven into reasonable order we went to collect some spares from a GT being broken. I was horrified to find it was an immaculate green one with less than 50k on the clock. Personally I wanted to offer him a trade for Sven as he hadn't taken much off but Al wouldnt hear of it. There was worse to come - his own green GT was also in the workshop and next in line for breaking. I couldn't bear to ask what mileage it had done or look too closely at the condition. It still haunts me.
Sylvia

Snazzy - 1993 Paris Blue ES red dipstick 2.0i bought 2001
Lethal Lily - 1991 White Turbo
hubby has
Sven - 1994 Dark Green GT
Evil Eva 1992 Paris Blue Turbo

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:47 pm

dcwalker wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:35 pm
Okay - bear with me while I back-track here because, as you say, this is getting confusing...

11.48 won't start the car, and an instant drop like that doesn't sound healthy. Do you have any idea from either looking at it or from any documentation you may have got with the car how old the battery is?

I am intrigued by these 3 relays - the white and black ones are the fuel pump and ignition system. The red one is a mystery unless it is one of the additional ones added as part of the immobiliser system - hence my previous question: so can you answer my question about the remote/immobiliser?

When you say the car doesn't start, what exactly doesn't happen? By which I mean does the starter motor turn over? Can you hear the fuel pump (it should buzz when you turn the key to position 2)? Or does the car just "click"? Or is it absolutely dead?

I know you are swapping relays over but don't rule out more than one being faulty (I recently made that mistake and it took me quite some time to wake up to it!). Might be worth testing the circuits by bridging relay terminals - we should be able to guide you with that if needed.

BTW, pleased to learn that your GT is green - join the club! Between us that means we can now account for about 5 green GTs, which isn't bad given there were only 250 GTs in total and more were red than green...

David
Well I only have one key which is not a remote key and the previous owner did not seem to think it had any immobiliser. I assume it doesn't have an immobiliser but don't know that for sure. And if it does why did it stop working after so many times of starting.

I have ordered a new battery and will pick up tomorrow then hopefully get some more meaningful voltage test results.

When it first stopped starting it was turning over but just seemed to not catch on. But as the week wore on I guess the battery went flat with me fiddling. Then by Thursday all I got by was a clicking noise. So i charged it overnight and it seemed to take forever. When it did get to 12.6 I tested it with my multi meter and immediately started to drop. I persisted and put it in the car. (my thought was while there was still some charge in it I could at least get some tests done on the relays). However because it rapidly became so discharged I'm not sure if that is why I was only receiving small amounts of voltage at the coil or because there are other problems.
I have never bridged relays before so would definitely need some help with that. But thanks for the continued help. I'm determined to get to the bottom of it.

On a couple of separate notes is it easy to get spare relays? I have seen some on ebay in Lithuania but will have to check part numbers if needed. The more I look at the wiring the more I see needs attention. I am going to have to make a list. Some bare wire parts on some wiring above the rad. And a choc block connector on one of the wires coming from the battery that doesn't look too clever. Plus as previously stated earth straps around battery look a little gone on!

dcwalker
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dcwalker » Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:54 am

Morning Edmund

OK - no fob hopefully means no immobiliser, but then I just have one key (nothing else) for my 440 and the immobiliser is managed by the fob! What you say about the sudden failure is a good point, although I managed to trip the immobiliser on the 440 when trying to sort some wiring (still no idea what exactly I did!) so then spent happy hours working our how to bypass the whole system.

Anyway, let's park that possible answer for now and only go back down that route if all else fails.

Your description of declining ability dwindling to a click is classic dying battery, so if you have a new battery on the way that may just be the answer...

That said, the wiring doesn't sound too clever, as you say. A lot of critical wiring runs along the top front of the engine compartment and if there are bare bits the "wrong part" may be coming into contact with the bodywork and earthing where it shouldn't. Dodgy earth straps do cause problems, but you should be able to see whether it is holding together enough to work. In the circumstances you describe, unless it has suddenly broken (obvious to see) I wouldn't expect such a sudden impact on things.

All the connections in the positive battery terminal wiring need to be good so there may be another problem there. Again, we'll park it for the moment but you should see a "mega-fuse" in a black plastic box tied up in the wiring across the front - it's possible this has blown, but if so we need to work out why because that's serious!

Relays are actually fairly standard, and you'll find on the 480 most of them are actually the same relay. It has fewer separate relays than other cars because so much is done within the CEM. If you want a couple of spare relays to experiment with just ask and I can help you there, and I expect Jeff can too (and others). And yes, we can help you re bridging them if needed...

I think the best thing to do at this point is carefully check and clean/repair the wiring you can see is dodgy, get the new battery in, and then see where things stand. If it's problem solved, great; if not we can go from there.

Good luck!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT (plus 2004 C70 Collection & 1995 440 ES)
Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:10 pm

I have been tinkering with the car on my day off work today. I have come across this relay diagram on one of the 480 website-
websites.http://volvo480.myds.me/v480eu/download ... layout.doc
It Makes mention of relay ten in the box being iginiton. Do you think this could be the relay for powering the coil? I have taken out this relay and put ignition on. The dash lights go out. Not sure if that means it can't be the ignition relay or not.
Does anyone know definitely which relay on a gt sends power to the coil? If I know this I can go much further in determining how I can get this started? The ones in the drivers scuttle are inconclusive. Other than the white backed one which is the fuel pump. Again though looking at some wiring diagrams online I see the other two labelled as air con and air con condenser. http://volvo480.myds.me/v480eu/download ... wiring.pdf
Oh and I should probably add. I have the new battery in and the iffy looking wiring has been sorted.
Really struggling to with this now. Any help would be great. Thanks

dcwalker
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dcwalker » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:11 pm

Edmundpwb2 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:10 pm
I have been tinkering with the car on my day off work today. I have come across this relay diagram on one of the 480 website-
websites.http://volvo480.myds.me/v480eu/download ... layout.doc
It Makes mention of relay ten in the box being iginiton. Do you think this could be the relay for powering the coil? I have taken out this relay and put ignition on. The dash lights go out. Not sure if that means it can't be the ignition relay or not.
Does anyone know definitely which relay on a gt sends power to the coil? If I know this I can go much further in determining how I can get this started? The ones in the drivers scuttle are inconclusive. Other than the white backed one which is the fuel pump. Again though looking at some wiring diagrams online I see the other two labelled as air con and air con condenser. http://volvo480.myds.me/v480eu/download ... wiring.pdf
Oh and I should probably add. I have the new battery in and the iffy looking wiring has been sorted.
Really struggling to with this now. Any help would be great. Thanks
The relays in the box as per the 1992-1994 diagrams you down-loaded should be the definitive pattern for your GT. As far as I can recall I have never found any discrepancy between it and the relay box in my own GT.

Both 3.03 and 3.04 are connected into the starter system, and relate to the starter motor. If you check the older, fuller wiring diagram (which is relevant except where updated by the 92-94 one) the relay at 3.03 is indeed marked "ignition" as per the doc you also downloaded, but in this context and via translation "ignition" is starter motor.

All three of the relays (3.03, 3.04 & 3.05) are linked into the instrument panel in some way (see the next diagram in the 92-94 booklet) so I'm not surprised that removing one kills the lights on the instrument panel, but I think that's a red herring, tbh.

The coil in these cars is all part of the "Electronic ignition unit" (A12 in the wiring diagrams). It is one of the several elements all connected to the ECU. The two relevant relays are the fuel pump relay (white base, B12) and the fuel injection system relay (black base, B2).

These are BOTH up above the driver footwell, not in the relay box - I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say they are "inconclusive"...however, if lack of power to the coil is due to a relay, B2 is definitely the most likely culprit (I hesitate to say the only one, knowing how weird 480 wiring can be, but it should be the only one).

There are indeed 3 relays related to the air conditioning - two have red bases, one has a white base. I thought these were all above the passenger footwell (at times the wiring diagrams can be confusing because only some items swap sides between left and right hand drive). Can I suggest you pop the lower panel off the passenger footwell (3 round clips, pull out the centre pin on each) and see if they are there? That way we can at least understand whether the third relay on the driver side is, in fact, just one of these or is a further, extra relay.

IF it stops raining I'll look and see what there is in my GT, but it's chucking it down at the moment!!

If you look carefully, you'll see that most of the relays on the car are actually the same model number. I believe you'll find that the relay at B2 is identical not only to B12, but also the ones for the fog-lights at 3.07 and 3.08 in the relay box. Assuming these lights work ok, can I suggest "borrowing" the relay from, say, 3.07 and trying it in B12?

Let us know how you get on.

David
Current: 1994 480 GT (plus 2004 C70 Collection & 1995 440 ES)
Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:50 am

Again thanks for the advice DC. My limited knowledge is running out on these things. Anyway I checked the front and rear fogger work then changed the relays over but still no difference.
Not sure what to try next. I guess I will actually buy a new crank sensor in case the clean up I carried out on it wasn't enough. Is it worth me check to see if power is getting to both the relays and with the ignition on? I guess that would rule out electrical problems in some areas?

dcwalker
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dcwalker » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:16 am

Morning Edmund

These cars can be very frustrating at times, but hang in there and don't get disheartened - we'll work out what's wrong eventually...

OK, the exercise in swapping relays over should have demonstrated that the relays up in the driver's footwell aren't the problem themselves. That's one thing ticked off the list!

Yes, checking the wiring through to see where you do or don't have voltage would be a sensible next step. Before buying any new items like the crank sensor though I'd check the error codes again. I know before they were 1-1-1, which is no errors recorded, but as we discussed given what had happened any existing error codes might have been erased. You've been trying to start the car again so it might be that something's been triggered which will point us in the right direction.

How is the new battery holding up?

David
Current: 1994 480 GT (plus 2004 C70 Collection & 1995 440 ES)
Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:12 pm

Hello David
Well I have been out again. No new diagnostic codes have been logged. I have tested the resistance on the crank sensor and read 159 which is just outside the plus of minus 60 listed in the Haynes manual so I guess that is probably OK. When checking voltages to the relays I did find something interesting. With the relay out to B2 I switched the ignition on there is power going to three points on the terminal. I thought this should be only two? There is around 12v to points 30,86 and 87 on the relay terminal with only point 85 with no volts. Bearing in mind this is with relay B2 not in place. Hopefully I am on to something?
Cheers Edmund

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:24 pm

Help really needed now.
So since the last post. I have narrowed down the problem to there being a problem with the circuit which has the injectors, coil, idle sensor. None of which are getting power on ignition and only 0.05 to the coil when cranking.
The fuel pump works for a second but as the injectors have no power I guess it cuts out and not the three seconds it's supposed. Relay B12 I have changed and checked. I have pulled down the main ecu and checked. No burnt runners or obvious dry solder. Can anyone help. I am pretty stuck now.
I have bridged relays B2 and B12. When I bridge B12 the power remains on to the fuel pump. Bit still no fuel or spark as still no power.

Edmundpwb2
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Edmundpwb2 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:16 pm

So i think it must be the Ecu. Does anyone know if you can check an ecu? Or check the wiring earth that goes into the ecu. I have checked all i can think of to no avail. So next step as far as I can see is new ecu. Any help would be great. Many thank

dcwalker
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by dcwalker » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:13 pm

I have sent you a PM...

David
Current: 1994 480 GT (plus 2004 C70 Collection & 1995 440 ES)
Previous: Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

Robou
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Re: Help needed. No start. No spark

Post by Robou » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:36 pm

It is quite difficult in this lengthy conversation to find out what actually happened, so I didn't. But it may not be superfluous to point to the fact that the relays in many cases are activated by the ECU only if the engine is turning e.g. by the starter motor. At ignition on relay connections 86 c.q. 85 are connected to ground. Depending on loom, first check which one carries 12V before connecting the other to ground.
By then fuel pump, injectors, ignition unit and idle speed valve receive 12V and measuring gets sense.

Before consulting diagrams be sure of motor type and year.
Too old to bother
480 Turbo midst '91

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