Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

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Filvas
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Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:50 pm

Hi!

First of all, huge thanks to all the people who have posted on this forum. I would've probably scrapped my 480 within the first year of ownership if I didn't have this forum as a resource to turn to.

Anyway, after three years I've faced what seemed somewhat inevitable: pop up motor trouble.

I took away both motors and tested them. One of them seems to be unfunctioning. The working one seems to work on both sides.

I'm guessing its a ground problem (?) because it occasionally worked when I tapped it, but then refused to work alltogether. The whole pop up motor is encased in some sort of plastic, but some of this shielding case has cracked. Am I correct in assuming the earth wire is this one:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3QGzqcjHVD0Xmm3E3

If so, would it fix the motor if I simply grounded that with another wire? Or could it be fixed by someone more of a competent car electrician than me?

I'm utterly lost when it comes to car electrics, so I come here (again) to look for advice. :D

Thanks for the replies in advance!

Regards

Filvas

(Owner of one of only 14 Volvo 480's in Finland)
1987 Volvo 480 imported from Sweden to Finland in 2014
2020 Seat Mii bought from a toy store

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brinkie
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by brinkie » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:10 pm

Unfortunately, the motor itself is most times at fault. There are two major causes for the motor to fail.
1. The nylon worm wheel that is driven by the worm (which in turn is connected to the electric motor) is worn out, so the worm slips through the gear. This is currently unrepairable.
Image
2. The sliding contacts inside the motor make bad contact or are broken off.
3. Alternatively, if you experience weird opening and closing of the motor, the relay may be at fault.

If the motor works after tapping (or turning the white knob at the end - that is the manual control of the motor) then it's probably the second cause: the internal contacts are bad.
You can refurbish the contacts, but opening the motors is a lot of work. You need to remove the coating
Image
and drill out the rivets.
Image
and then the inside will probably look like this
Image

If you don't want to go through all this, it's better to find a second-hand popup motor, they usually go for € 50 each.
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i, 1999 Volvo S70 2.5 Europa, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum

Filvas
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:47 am

Thank you very much for the reply!

I'm guessing the fault is in the sliding contacts, since the pop up motor worked intermittedly when I turned the motor manually or tapped it a little.

Follow up question: before dismantling the pop up motors, I sometimes expirienced that both pop up headlights would go up, but the light wouldn't go on. Flashing high beams would work though. Am I correct in assuming this is also probably pop up motor related?

The car had been sitting (mostly outside, regrettably) for about six months. Before that I didn't have problems with the pop up lights.

Anyway, I'll start sourcing for new headlight motors. I'll appreciate any pointers as to where to look for them. I have found two places that claim to sell them used (one in Sweden and one in Finland), but haven't heard from them yet. I'll keep opening and fixing the old motor as a backup plan...

Thanks again!
1987 Volvo 480 imported from Sweden to Finland in 2014
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by WRDendy » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:27 pm

Filvas wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:47 am
Anyway, I'll start sourcing for new headlight motors. I'll appreciate any pointers as to where to look for them.
Just head down to your local Ferrari breaker and pull one out of a 456 - rumour has it that they are exactly the same! (Seriously :lol:)

More seriously, breakers are probably the way to go, alternatively someone on here might have one. Good luck!
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dragonflyjewels
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by dragonflyjewels » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:57 pm

If you are looking for a replacement, bear in mind that the only difference between nearside & offside is the length of the cable so if you can't get the right one you can manage with the other side.
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by brinkie » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:17 pm

Filvas wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:47 am
Follow up question: before dismantling the pop up motors, I sometimes expirienced that both pop up headlights would go up, but the light wouldn't go on. Flashing high beams would work though. Am I correct in assuming this is also probably pop up motor related?

The car had been sitting (mostly outside, regrettably) for about six months. Before that I didn't have problems with the pop up lights.

Anyway, I'll start sourcing for new headlight motors. I'll appreciate any pointers as to where to look for them. I have found two places that claim to sell them used (one in Sweden and one in Finland), but haven't heard from them yet. I'll keep opening and fixing the old motor as a backup plan...
The lights not going on when they are up, that is a typical fault of pre-1989 cars, which have an additional microswitch to detect that the lights are up, and an additional inhibit relay to switch them off until they are fully up. Apparently this was annoying so it was deleted from model year 1989 onwards (together with a lot of other improvements)

In your case, since the fault appeared after a long time of standstill, I think the motor can be rejuvenated by letting it pop up and down continuously for about 15 minutes. You can do this by removing the pop-up relay and connecting pins like in the picture below:
Image
Don't forget to put something into the bonnet lock so the microswitch will be closed, otherwise the motors won't work (safety feature).

If all else fails, I can find those motors at our Volvo 480 breaker, Orlando. Shipment to Finland is a bit expensive (12 euro with DHL which takes forever if it arrives at all, and 21 euro with reliable tracked, registered and insured service)
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i, 1999 Volvo S70 2.5 Europa, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum

Filvas
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:14 pm

Thank you for all the tips! I've found a new pop up motor already and I'll think I'll order it just in case, but I will also try putting it back together and running continuously for 15 minutes.

The Ferrari bit was interesting too. Must be the only link between Volvo and Ferrari in history. 🤔
1987 Volvo 480 imported from Sweden to Finland in 2014
2020 Seat Mii bought from a toy store

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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:06 pm

I got the motors working! I ran them for about 15 minutes and then pulled the plug. We'll see how it behaves after I drive it around when weather gets a little better.

The left pop up motor wouldn't move at first. I tried making it move by moving the small screw at the end by hand. It moved only a little at a time, then froze again. I discovered I could get it moving longer by touching the wiring harness, so I just pushed the harness a little. After a little push it worked continuously for 15 minutes without hesitation.

Do you think the problem is in the wiring harness maybe? Or is it still probably inside the motor?`

Looked pretty funky when I ran the lights. The left side strut is a little tired already so it moved a little slower then the right one. Unsync ensued...

https://youtu.be/LmZSiJ_SBYk
1987 Volvo 480 imported from Sweden to Finland in 2014
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by brinkie » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:48 pm

I have seen your Facebook post, I gave my quite a laugh :rofl:

I think it might just get a bit more current when the contacts of the round white connector are being pressed more tightly. So it might help if you open up the connector and clean the contacts with contact cleaner, and then brush them clean.
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i, 1999 Volvo S70 2.5 Europa, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum

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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by jifflemon » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:11 pm

that looks vaguely familiar.... :rofl:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bDIUV0GSDgLNfTS32

Filvas
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:35 pm

Let the winking go on! Or not, I ordered a new motor and it should arrive next week.

The left pop up light works when the cable harness is in just the right position. When I drive around it stops working again. We'll see if the new motor helps.

I also tried the contact cleaner! Thanks for the advice about that, but it wouldn't help this time. I sprayed some more of it and I'll let it soke for tonight, but I'm not too hopeful about the results. :)
1987 Volvo 480 imported from Sweden to Finland in 2014
2020 Seat Mii bought from a toy store

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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:05 pm

I installed the new pop up motor and everything worked fine!

Unfortunately now, after driving a while the lights pop up and down, but they don't light up! Inconvenient if you try to drive after sunset. I only get light when I flash the full beams, but even they don't stick.

So it seems the fault is in the "additional microswitch" and/or the inhibit relay, if I understood correctly. I think I found the inhibit relay, or atleast where it should be. Is the relay labeled G here isn't it?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ipVl5waj8Sy5yyea2

Or atleast where it should be. I only see a copper plate there. I didn't try to remove it but I'm guessing someone has been fixing this problem before and replaced the relay with this copper plate? :lol:

Am I on the right track? Where is the microswitch located? I got to check that too.

Meanwhile I've been happy doing some daytime driving 8)
1987 Volvo 480 imported from Sweden to Finland in 2014
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by eye of ra » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:59 pm

All looks as it should for a EURO car up to 1988.

Up to 1988 as A is round (after that it was square) and EURO as B is a bridge (Netherlands, Norway and GB had a relay but for different reasons) and all this means that C is your “Inhibitor Relay, Headlights”.

Image
Last edited by eye of ra on Tue May 22, 2018 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Mon May 21, 2018 7:16 pm

I finally got the new headlight struts from Dylan and after installing them I tackled the non-working lights again. I looked at the relay C as mentioned and found this:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nwKaCzYQDruHVu6f2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/il0TgZo6v8VrGcr03

If I replace this with a new one, will my lights work again? Any guesses? :D

Symptoms are: lights don't work even when pop ups are all the way up (or pop up motors are disconnected even from motors axle and pop ups are held up with struts only). I can flash the lights but high beam wont "stick".

I checked the fuses earlier and didn't see any burned ones, but will check again later after installing the struts now.
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by jamescarruthers » Mon May 21, 2018 7:38 pm

The "sticking"‎ or latching onto high beam function is done mechanically in the switch and is often broken. Alternatively, the momentary flash function can be broken.

I just replaced my non-latching one for one that latches. Only, this one now doesn't do the momentary flash! Damn!‎

I think between the two, I can make one good one. Never opened one up, but there's a first time for everything!

The 440 ones are the same so you'll have a good chance of getting one on eBay. Whether or not it works you probably won't be able to tell until you try it on the car, as I just discovered.‎
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Mon May 21, 2018 7:45 pm

jamescarruthers wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:38 pm
The "sticking"‎ or latching onto high beam function is done mechanically in the switch and is often broken. Alternatively, the momentary flash function can be broken.

I just replaced my non-latching one for one that latches. Only, this one now doesn't do the momentary flash! Damn!‎

I think between the two, I can make one good one. Never opened one up, but there's a first time for everything!

The 440 ones are the same so you'll have a good chance of getting one on eBay. Whether or not it works you probably won't be able to tell until you try it on the car, as I just discovered.‎
That would explain my high beams not working, but it surely wouldn't explain the low beams? I only get day light running lights. No light from the pop ups.
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by travelman » Mon May 21, 2018 8:49 pm

This seems like the problem I had recently.Pop ups came up-after a little stuttering,but no lights at all except for Flash.All light fuses seemed ok,but when I replaced fuse 22,which was labelled day running,then everything worked perfectly again.It is almost as though fuse 22 over rides all the other light fuses.I have had no problems since.480 electrics seem to be a law to themselves!

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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by Filvas » Tue May 22, 2018 6:17 am

travelman wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:49 pm
This seems like the problem I had recently.Pop ups came up-after a little stuttering,but no lights at all except for Flash.All light fuses seemed ok,but when I replaced fuse 22,which was labelled day running,then everything worked perfectly again.It is almost as though fuse 22 over rides all the other light fuses.I have had no problems since.480 electrics seem to be a law to themselves!
But you have a 1991 model. Mine is 1987 which has (or I suspect it has) this extra relay to control lights that I photographed above.

I'll check the fuse nr. 22 anyway. Thanks for the tip!
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by eye of ra » Tue May 22, 2018 8:49 am

1987 cars also used fuse 22 however if your pop-ups and DRL are working it won’t be fuse 22.

Your new picture shows a short relay but in your original picture it is tall.

Image

I may have confused things by lettering my arrows (should probably have numbered them) as ARROW - C is pointing to RELAY – A so I’m guessing your new picture may be RELAY – C.

The lights won’t work if RELAY – C (not arrowed but pictured bottom right) is broken but neither will a lot of other things including the engine.

Relay – A (the tall one arrowed – C) is a likely cause of your other light problems not covered by James.

To check it remove it and jumper between pin 30 and 87 in the socket the lights should come on (it won’t matter what position the light switch is in or if the ignition is on or not) if they don’t light up your problem is elsewhere.

Note this is for a 1987 car and may be different for other years.
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Re: Pop up control motor unfunctional - is it repairable?

Post by jamescarruthers » Tue May 22, 2018 9:31 am

Somewhere on this forum recently, Brinkie illustrated how to make the lights pop up continuously by holding the bonnet switch closed and ‎bridging a terminal on the relay socket.

I think this might be a good idea because you mentioned that your lights stuttered in their movement. This sounded to me like they might need a good exercise to clean the contacts and trying to persuade everything to work in its full range of movement..

On my car, which had sat unused for a long time, also 87, the movement was also poor and the light bulbs didn't illuminate until I opened/closed the pop-ups many times. I guess this cleaned the contacts up and‎ got everything working to its full travel and they have been fine ever since.

Just a suggestion if you have exhausted the proper electrical troubleshooting. ‎

Good luck!‎
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

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