1794 cc renault engine

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schakal
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1794 cc renault engine

Post by schakal » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:56 pm

sorry to look like talking about renaults all the time but this i find very interesting . now there are 2 renault engines very similar to eachother ,i almost believe the heads and bottom ends are interchangable .
one is the 1721cc F2N the used on renault 9 /renault 19 and volvos
the other similar engine is called F3P ,1794cc used in renault 19 in single point and multipoint injected versions 95bhp and 113bhp

any ideas if the full injection f3p head would make any gains on the volvo 480 1.7i ???


here are some pictures of the F3P head from my scrapped renault 19 ,she had 182k miles on the clock and she still was running sweet as a nut .

Image

Image

Image

ayee ,i do like pictures ,hehehee :D
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Post by Milosz_480 » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:06 pm

I doubt it because burning chamber is in cylinder in both cylinder heads. Only difference may be in timing.
Maybe inlet/outlet canals are different.
Swaping them may be so-so.
I think Haz knows more details about these cylinder heads ;)
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schakal
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Post by schakal » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:00 pm

Milosz_480 wrote:I doubt it because burning chamber is in cylinder in both cylinder heads. Only difference may be in timing.
Maybe inlet/outlet canals are different.
Swaping them may be so-so.
I think Haz knows more details about these cylinder heads ;)
you might be right ,
ayee,haz seems to know a lot about renault/volvo engines
i suppose he would share it when he sees this post

btw ,your car looks rather spangly as well :hopping:
1.7i turbo i take it ???

any chance of some detailed pictures of the engine bay ?
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Post by Milosz_480 » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:36 pm

Any chances of posting 1st pic in better quality?
I think burning chamber in this engine is not in cylinder but in cylinder head but must see a bigger pic. Then swaping them may bring some results.
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Post by haz@nocturnal_development » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:02 am

hi,
unsure as i've not tried. i guess that the renault have a similar stroke but wider bores? there may be a varient in oilways?
not sure it there would be much gains to be had.

more power could be gained easier by swapping cams, adjusting fuelling and timing, air filter,exhaust etc.


haz :)
reanualt 5 campus, Volvo turbo conversion, hybrid T28, -31 actautor, external oil cooler, THS intercooler, rear radiator, large throttle, Adaptronic ECU, cossie blue injectors. results recorded '06 (21 psi 228bhp/229lbs),(23psi 12.6 @108mph)

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Post by Milosz_480 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:06 am

Yeah, I had to think for a while and that's what's coming out of my head:

What I'm thinking is that using F3P cylinder head in 480 engine you'd dobule burning chamers, and get lower CR what means stronger engine but less power, than you can put light pressure turbo up to 0,3 bars and get about 140-160BHP. Normaly turbocharger in B18E would kill the engine quite quicklly. Too much compression, by putting cylinder head with burning chamber in you'd de-compress the engine, so putting turbocharger would be easier. Turbo charger here is necessary.
As you may noticed normal 480's engine got about 102-109BHP while turbo'd got only some BHP more. With bigger CR you may get a more powerful engine than orginally turbo'd.
Only problem is what timing belt to use? 125 teeth or 124 teeth? ;)

It's quite late now and I think my head is not working reverse way ;)
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Post by Clio Steve » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:16 am

Random Idea but it could work, seeing as the B18 block is infact a Renault F type block so engine mounts wouldn't really be a problem, why not look into the 1.8 16v F7P (137bhp) renault engine, or even the 2 litre 16v F7R (150bhp).

The 1.8 can be had very cheap, and the volvo gearbox will bolt to it no problem, May need to do a bit of wiring, but not much :)


Anyways, I don't really think there is much to be gained from using the renault head on the b18 block, as Haz said, you'd prob get more gain from just changing the cam. Turbocharging the N/A B18 engines would be pointless really when theres already the B18FT about, which doesn't require custom parts and standalone ECU

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Post by Milosz_480 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:38 pm

Here are some pics from B18E engine;
Image
Pistons with burning chamber


Image
Cylinder head without burning chamber (cylinder head surface is straight)


Image
Complete engine, 1,7non-turbo 109+ BHP mod'd inlet/outlet canals.
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Previous:
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Post by schakal » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:44 pm

here are some bigger pictures ,still not the best quality due to my crap camera sorry

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/ ... b04792.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/ ... b04790.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/ ... b04789.jpg

them b18e engine exhaust and inlet manifolds look sweet ,
do the ports look anything like the ones on f3p mate ??
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Post by Milosz_480 » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:52 pm

To be honest exhaust manifold is completly rubish.
1st: it's on the same side as inlet manifold so air is a little bit warmer
2nd: it's so curved and takes a some power from engine but I think it looks as it does cause Volvo wanted more torquey engine.
When I looked a little closer I see that F3P is comepletly different cylinder head. But oil/water canals may fit well. I can be quite interesting to put cylinder head from 1,8 engine into B18E with B18E camshaft. But on the other hand can take a lot of time and money with non results.
If you'd like to tune your R9 a little put B18E camshaft atthe begining. If this isn't enough get turbo'd engine give Richard ECU and enjoy power of 160-170 BHP :D I'm sure it will be cheaper;)
no car, why drive a car if you can fly SAAB
Previous:
-Mitsubishi Lancer GLXi '93 LPG powered
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-'87 480 ES red
pics>>> http://photobucket.com/albums/v304/mayah480/

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Post by schakal » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:04 am

Milosz_480 wrote:To be honest exhaust manifold is completly rubish.
1st: it's on the same side as inlet manifold so air is a little bit warmer
2nd: it's so curved and takes a some power from engine but I think it looks as it does cause Volvo wanted more torquey engine.
When I looked a little closer I see that F3P is comepletly different cylinder head. But oil/water canals may fit well. I can be quite interesting to put cylinder head from 1,8 engine into B18E with B18E camshaft. But on the other hand can take a lot of time and money with non results.
If you'd like to tune your R9 a little put B18E camshaft atthe begining. If this isn't enough get turbo'd engine give Richard ECU and enjoy power of 160-170 BHP :D I'm sure it will be cheaper;)
i dont want a lot of hassle or 180bhp to be honest ,
not on the r9 at least .

on that account ,the camshaft idea would be the best thing . i wont even need to get the head out ,timing belt out ,rocker cover out ,cam shaft bearings out ,camshaft out ,new camshaft in ,job done :)

however i am still unsure of the adjusting the timing ???

also any ideas about a different (better) carburator i can use instead of this WEBER 32 DRTM crap ?? are there any older/other volvos running the same engine with a carburator setup by any chance ??

what about the 1.8 f3p camshaft ?? any good ??
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Post by Milosz_480 » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:26 am

schakal wrote:
however i am still unsure of the adjusting the timing ???
OK do it this way:
Put camshaft onto mark, find marks on flywheel and some marks on gearbox, one mark on gearbox is on degrees(as I guess) rotate engine without timing belt on, (engine shuold rotate into front, so you'll know which way to rotate it) set flywheel a little earlier than the thickest mark, I think 6 dgrees should be ok. Then lock flywheel with a screw driver or sth and lock camshaft sprocket, put timing belt on and rotate a few times engine to see if it goes easily(check if valves don't meet pistons) and you're done! :) After all you can adjust ignition and enjoy the ride!
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-'87 480 ES red
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Post by schakal » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:24 am

cheers :)
will give this a go ,need the right camshaft now .
will not be easy to find
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Post by haz@nocturnal_development » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:58 am

keep it simple :cheers:

you can retard/advance the cam like mentioned but i think its alot more than 6 degrees. i personally would use a better cam and fit the correct way as this would give a power increase (the adjustment may not). give it some timing adjustment using the tdc sensor (if required), good fuel like bp ultimate (optimax only has an octane additive which diminished after time), performance air filter and an equal length length exhaust manifold, like an es?

good luck and enjoy :)


haz :)
reanualt 5 campus, Volvo turbo conversion, hybrid T28, -31 actautor, external oil cooler, THS intercooler, rear radiator, large throttle, Adaptronic ECU, cossie blue injectors. results recorded '06 (21 psi 228bhp/229lbs),(23psi 12.6 @108mph)

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Post by schakal » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:30 pm

haz@nocturnal_development wrote:keep it simple :cheers:

you can retard/advance the cam like mentioned but i think its alot more than 6 degrees. i personally would use a better cam and fit the correct way as this would give a power increase (the adjustment may not). give it some timing adjustment using the tdc sensor (if required), good fuel like bp ultimate (optimax only has an octane additive which diminished after time), performance air filter and an equal length length exhaust manifold, like an es?

good luck and enjoy :)


haz :)
better cam as in one of them i can buy from a modding company ??
would there be any garages/companies out there to do the timing job for me ,as i dont want to hit and miss
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Post by overboost » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm

haz@nocturnal_development wrote:
you can retard/advance the cam like mentioned but i think its alot more than 6 degrees.

haz :)
Dead on m8.

There are 40 teeth on cam pulley. Equals 9 degrees per tooth. So, if you move one tooth on the cam pulley u get 9 degrees advance/or retard on the cam. 9 degrees on the cam equals 18 degrees on the crank since cam is 1/2 crank speed.

Vernier pulley would be good idea, but i aint found one off shelf yet. clio 16v verniers will fit , but need mods ;)

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Post by haz@nocturnal_development » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:54 pm

overboost wrote:
haz@nocturnal_development wrote:
you can retard/advance the cam like mentioned but i think its alot more than 6 degrees.

haz :)
Dead on m8.

There are 40 teeth on cam pulley. Equals 9 degrees per tooth. So, if you move one tooth on the cam pulley u get 9 degrees advance/or retard on the cam. 9 degrees on the cam equals 18 degrees on the crank since cam is 1/2 crank speed.

Vernier pulley would be good idea, but i aint found one off shelf yet. clio 16v verniers will fit , but need mods ;)
ah, thanks for the confirmation ;)

schakal - no mate, use a std production cam, just not the 1 thats fitted now :).

timings straight forward, if in doubt us a haynes and if ya still stuck then see if a local member can lend a hand.


haz :)
reanualt 5 campus, Volvo turbo conversion, hybrid T28, -31 actautor, external oil cooler, THS intercooler, rear radiator, large throttle, Adaptronic ECU, cossie blue injectors. results recorded '06 (21 psi 228bhp/229lbs),(23psi 12.6 @108mph)

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Post by schakal » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:25 am

i have not got a tdc sensor means its a garage job by the looks .

also do we all agree that the B18E camshaft is the one i am after ???
performance air filter and an equal length length exhaust manifold, like an es?
i wanted to put a cone filter on there before but i have been told not to as this will lead to carburettor freezing in a long motorway run . if that makes any sense .???
on the r9 there is a flap operated by heat on the airbox housing ,the flap carries warm air from the side of the exhaust manifold to the airbox when the engine is cold as it gets warmer the flap shuts with heat (thermostat sort of set up ) and lets cold air in from the airpipe .

what do you mean by equal length exhaust manifold ??
the f3p manifold on the renault 19 looks like the one on the r9
but the manifold on milosz_480 s pictures look way too different
i will take some pictures of the f3p manifolds (inlet and zorst )


this is getting interesting now ,
has anyone got a picture of the
b18e head from the manifold bores side ????
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Post by martinholmesuk » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:23 am

oh yeah
Last edited by martinholmesuk on Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by haz@nocturnal_development » Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:58 am

this is a none turbo thread martin ;)

shakal, what do ya mean there's no tdc sensor? so how does the electrics know where the engines at?

lol @ carb freeze, maybe if you had a large front mount cooler. there's enough heat in the engine bay to prevent this if it was a problem. bin that air box :)

equal length is just that, each runner is of equal length. the exhaust flow pulses and the equal length helps the gases flow smoother.


haz :)
reanualt 5 campus, Volvo turbo conversion, hybrid T28, -31 actautor, external oil cooler, THS intercooler, rear radiator, large throttle, Adaptronic ECU, cossie blue injectors. results recorded '06 (21 psi 228bhp/229lbs),(23psi 12.6 @108mph)

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