Engine turns over but no ignition, dead, died

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:52 pm

Hi Volvo480 Club,

I was driving home tonight when the engine suddenly died. There was no coughing or spluttering, the engine just went dead. The engine was not under strain or excessive running and was being driven at about 1500/2000rpm in 5th gear at about 40mph. All other electrics were unaffected.

The vehicle is a 1989 Volvo 480 ES fitted with a B18E engine.

I've checked and questioned the following in the freezing cold moonlight;

RE: Flywheel sensor
Connection is good. Tested sensor with ohm meter which reads about 206ohms. (book says 220ohms +- 60)

RE: Attempted rolling start while being towed
No action or attempt by engine to fire

RE: Spark Plug activity
Removed one of the leads and attempted to spark a plug on the chassis. No activity

RE: Relays
All relays were tapped with a screw driver as a desperate measure. Am thinking this is irrelavant but tried anyhow.

Obviously I'm a bit gutted, the vehicle has been exceptional and without major fault for some 2 years (ignoring the speedo of course).

On a possibly related subject but please discount otherwise. Last week when it was raining we had alot of water about. The engine died coughing and spluttering. While attempting to start and get going it was backfiring in a major way (I was half expecting the Police to turn up judging from the loud echoes). This backfiring and explosive banging was real bad, loud enough to get people's curtains twitching. After about 10 minutes it would start but only with the revs kept upto 3000rpm, any lower it would die again. So I kept the revs up in the hope any water would steam off the affected unknown areas. All was well and it was put down to driving through puddles, must be more careful in future. It had done this major bang backfiring last year again with lots of water about. I don't know if this is an associated problem and am highlighting it so you have all the information available. It has been a perfect runner since last year and the other week.

The vehicle now stands on the driveway with the ignition dead. I've tried leaving it to cool down etc. but to no avail.

Please offer any suggestions, I would be grateful for any assistance you may provide. I'm generally mechanically and electrically minded but not too hot on the solution pointers with a Volvo 480.

The following will be checked tomorrow;

RE: Coil and Ignition signal
The ignition coil will be checked tomorrow for appropriate resistances for the B18E system; 4k +- 1,5 kOhm secondary, 0,6+-0,2Ohm primary.

RE: Good connections
All engine connectors will be plugged and unplugged tomorrow.

Many thanks in advance,

NickyNackyNoo

volvofox · Post by **volvofox** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:20 am

Hi, (nice nickname,)

well i assume you have more than 9 volt (because less, and the ecu will turn off)

Btw. does your car leak to the inner ? I mean is the A pillar wet on the inside ? this is where the ECU is (lright hand one, so above the right foot of any GB driver), and that can cause all this trouble. I expext you will look at this tomorow. Of course you checked if all the engine sided ignition is dry. Are all the cables on the bobine connected (see the downloadable electric schedule on http://volvo480.northernscum.org.uk/ (thx drago)

Its evident some electrics have gone wet. I think near/at the ECU. How about have her inside a couple of days ?

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:42 am

Hiya Volvofox, many thanks for your reply.

I'll try to be as concise as practical without appearing unfriendly.

The vehicle does not appear to suffer from any of the dangerous damp problems that I've been reading about on the old forum. Namely around the ECU and the passenger footwell. It's dry to the touch down there. We have just had our first cold frost so might be dry joints..

I'm at the moment assuming (and hoping) that the ECU is fully functional. All other electrical aspects of the vehicle that the ECU control are in order. The lights pop-up/down as they should, all running/main lights are operating, and the indicators etc. are still working etc.

With absolute dread, I'm going to remove the ECU sometime tomorrow. And I MEAN dread. I'm not looking forward to this.

First thing tomorrow I'll check the coil and the ignition signal, in the hope that the coil is destroyed. Very unlikely I know, but I don't really fancy getting my SMD soldering iron out and haggling with scrappies.

I'll keep this thread posted with the outcomes. I note that it's a bit frustrating reading the old forum where peeps just dissapear without updating their information.

thanks, and hope to have good news soon.

volvofox · Post by **volvofox** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:09 am

you make a classic mistake.

ECU means Engine Contol Unit (not Electronic Control Unit) Its situated on the right hand A-pillar in any car, undependant if LHD or RHD.

CEM means Central Control Unit. This unit handles things like wipers, popups, doors, alarm, and other funny stuff Its in the left hand of the car, also at the a-pillar

--------

for to be complete : if anyone has ABS : this box is in the left corner of the boot, in the store box.

the MFU (Monitor Function Unit) is a smal print on the outside of the clockhousing of the dash.

The VEM (Ventilation Electronic Module)is a print on some more luxerious vent knob/sliders systems
----------
so assuming that the ECU would be fine because a.o. the popups still work is not correct. In "dorkish" bullshit.

hope you get this worked out. and yes, youre right. a thread without an end is useless.

Thanks.

luck
JPF

PS : left in any vehicle is in school terms the left as you piont your nose in the way the vehicle mostly drives

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:49 am

Yup, suspected I'd dropped that clanger with the ECU and which piller. poo.

glad u pointed that out, else I'd be ripping the CEM out tomorrow. Admittedly a few years ago one of the CEM's further connectors came loose behind the glove compartment (Left Hand Side, Passenger, UK), and me with my hands up behind the dash had the pop ups going up and down and all sorts. Got some funny looks from passers by.

Very sincere apologies for that mistake. I'm feeling quite silly being in such public view at such a late hour.

Am just reading the post on the old forum where I think the guys coil went, hoping this is my problem; http://pub32.ezboard.com/fvolvo480frm4. ... =511.topic

May I ask, are we likely to go in the control codes direction? I can see there's some debate regarding this subject in the other forum as to where and what's enabled for different model/vehicle releases. http://www.troublecodes.net/Volvo/

This is so confusing with lots of contradictions everywhere. I'll come back with as much physical info on the car as I can find, eg. Fenix 1 or 3.1 etc.

Speak soon.

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:02 am

A few links to add to the post so I can keep track;

RE: Bobine is the ECU
http://pub32.ezboard.com/fvolvo480frm4. ... ic&index=7

RE: Bobine is now the coil
http://pub32.ezboard.com/fvolvo480frm4. ... =511.topic

RE: Reset, it's Turbo's, GT's, and possibly later ES's and S's that have it (error code box)
http://pub32.ezboard.com/fvolvo480frm4. ... =918.topic

I'm back with more links. Whoever said 480 owners don't care about their cars? no-one I reckon. If Margret Thatcher had 4 hours sleep a night then so can I.

RE: Fenix systems OR CEM III's have diagnostic tool?
http://pub32.ezboard.com/fvolvo480frm3. ... =479.topic

RE: The Haynes Book Of Lies
no pointer link because they briefly skim over the subject. Oh and they reckon the ECU is the CEM and located in the passenger footwell. Lies lies lies!! Curse you Mr Haynes, I bet you thought nobody would have the determination to read your crappy book. Curse you too Mr Bill Gates, I've got 7 spam windows open you know. Some bugger's trying to sell me a casino.

RE: 400 series Fenix codes, models 1986 - 1995
http://www.harrisis.dircon.co.uk/ecu.html

RE: Some info but unfortunately not in English
webmajster.republika.onet...ronic.html
webmajster.republika.onet...volvo.html
webmajster.republika.onet...niazdo.htm

gerrsvolvo · Post by **gerrsvolvo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:55 am

Hello Nicky
I also will try to give a little help.
You say no spark.
So i would investigate from the sparkleads on backwards.
I mean.
-check the distributor (cap and rotor)
-check the hightensionlead to the distributor.
- check if the electrics to the renix or bosch coil-unit are OK.
I once had a fault in the connector to the renixunit (the electriccable was broken). There for my tip to check the continuity of the leads to the ignitionunit and to the ECU (on the rightheand Apilar) also the lead from the flywheel TDC sensor.
Good luck
Gerrsvolvo

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:09 am

Hi,

Really silly but have you unplugged the battery? My 480S would not switch on so I left it unplugged for an hour and then she started.

Maybe this helps?

MatBat · Post by **MatBat** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:11 am

Which would indicate imboliser?....

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:25 am

Hello again

I'm now at the stage where I've removed the ECU and coil assembly from the vehicle.

RE: ECU
The ECU is a Bendix Fenix 3 and is in absolutely immaculate condition. There are no signs of any damp penetration or otherwise (of course that doesn't mean it's working). It is marked "88 17" assuming this was manufactured in 1988. It would also appear that it has been removed or replaced by a previous owner of the vehicle as they did me the courtesy of leaving only the bottom 2 chassis securing screws in.

RE: Coil assembly
With the coil removed I have checked the resistances. These check out as 0.7 Ohms on the primary (accepted manufacturers tolerance is 0.4 to 0.8 ). The secondary comes in at 6290 Ohms (tolerance is 2500 to 5500 for engines except B18FT/B18FT(M), mine is the B18E so this is good so far)

When the coil was on the vehicle I tested the spark by removing the HT lead which goes directly between the coil and distributer. There was no spark. Also checked for spark last night on one of the cylinders.

What I've tried now with the coil on the bench, is to try and fire it using a 12v 5A bench power supply. It does not fire. The reason I've tried this is that going back to my days as a kid, I used to find old car coils laying about and would awe at the sparks I could create by 'flicking' a 12v car battery across the terminals. As already mentioned, I've tried this with this coil removed from the assembly and there's no action.

Please if anyone knows, give your opinions on the firing of the coil using this method. Although the resistances check out it concerns me that it's not arcing. Am using a paperclip with gaps varying from about 2-3mm to 1cm.

RE: Flywheel sensor
This does check out at 206 Ohms (tolerance is 220 Ohms +- 60). This can only be assume to be functional.

My next step until I check the posts here will be to do the following (hi to gerrsvolvo

);

a. Generally clean up the coil muck and contacts
b. Refit the ECU
c. Remove and clean the flywheel sensor
d. Check the +9.5v out from the ECU at the coil connectors.

Thanks for your ideas so far. I'm particularly interested though in this coil not firing on the bench as it concerns me.

Thanks,

NickyNackyNoo

ps. Hi to MartinHomes and Matbat. The battery will be connected shortly so we may have an answer on that. You've got my enthusiasm going to get it all back together now.

MatBat · Post by **MatBat** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:27 am

If you have the coil off the car, why not get it checked? Could be something simple.....

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Coil resistance

Ah, I've just read my own post. I'm getting back 6330 on the secondary at this test now. That's outside the tolerance of 2500 to 5500 according to the book of lies.

Any opinions here? I would still expect it to fire even if it is out.

pol · Post by **pol** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:47 am

Must be coil or similar. Go find a new one in a yard and put it in your sock as a stocking filler.

pol

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:12 pm

This is not looking good, it seems to point to the ECU. The following ECU tests have been conducted.

RE: B18E Ignition Coil/Module Signal Test
This is done by connecting a voltmeter between terminal B of the 2-pin connector and ground. When the starter motor is engaged the voltmeter should vibrate between 300 and 400 millivolts. This is not happening. Instead, the moment the ignition key is switched on before engaging the starter motor, a small voltage is present. When the starter is engaged the needle does not vibrate, it maintains the small stable voltage. (can't tell you what the voltage is as my analogue multimeter is dodgy, only using it to detect changing voltage, the other digital meter is useless for this type of test)

RE: Good Ground Test
This is achieved by connecting an ohm meter between terminal B of the 3-pin connector and ground. It should read 0 Ohms. This test is successful

RE: Power Supply Test
This test is conducted by connecting a voltmeter between terminal A of the 2-pin connector and ground. When the starter motor is engaged, and thereafter, the voltage should read at least 9.5v indicating that the ECU is powered up. This test is potentially successful. The voltage present is at the same level as the main battery supply at >12v (approx 13.8v). So therefore, it is greater than 9.5v. It should be noted that this supply is present even before the starter motor is engaged. This would coincide with starting a car whilst being towed (they will start without the motor being engaged and being in gear).

RE: Checking Power is being supplied to the physical coil
It should be noted that the whole "coil" comprises of two parts. The 'backing plate' appears to contain some electronics, this is called the computer module. The physical coil should be removed from the module leaving the backing plate/module in place. A standard 4w 12v bulb should now be connected between the points where the physical coil made contact. When the start motor is engaged, the bulb should flash. This test has not yet been conducted as without any signal above, it is not a priority yet. It will be tested later today.

RE: Checking the module coil output
This appears to be possible with the whole module removed from the vehicle. With the coil detatched, an ohmmeter is connected between the coil contact 1 (left hand contact) and terminal B of the 3-pin connector (the middle one on the top from before). The resistance should read 0 Ohms. This test has not yet been conducted as without any signal above, it is not a priority yet. It will be tested later today.

If anyone can figure that lot out, I'll personally recommend you for the Volvo 480 Nobel Prize. There should be one.

Ben Harris · Post by **Ben Harris** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:38 pm

There's a G-reg 480ES in the scrapyard in Rampton (about 8 miles north of Cambridge, i'd guess), or at least there was a couple of weeks ago! If you're looking to replace the ECU, it's probably still there, as that area of the car looked untouched. It's one of those old-fashioned scrapyards where you dismantle the bit you want from the car yourself and take it to the guy who makes up a figure off the top of his head! He's usually pretty reasonable price wise though, and I'd be surprised if he wants more than about Â£15 for it, at most!

Ben.

gerrsvolvo · Post by **gerrsvolvo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:03 pm

Hi Nicky
I was checking if i have the volvo instructions on how to check the coil in the firm.
Bur sorry I have mot. I have them at home and I am only tuesday back at the office.
I could mail thes on tuesday to your e.mailadres.
If you still want them then.
Gerrsvolvo
Goodluck

dbsvolvos · Post by **dbsvolvos** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:25 pm

dont discount the cambelt failure , the dizzy wont turn and youll get no spark even when the engine is turning over , but i would assume that the coil would fire to an earth if it was getting its signal from the crank sensor .

If you turn it over does the oil light go out ?

just providing some more avenues

MatBat · Post by **MatBat** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:27 pm

Wow! that's a really good thought!
You really know your stuff!

Glad your a member of the club

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:36 pm

Hello again.

RE: Oil Warning Light and Cam Belt
The Cam Belt is in good order and present. No signs of any changing tension etc. etc. The Oil Warning Light does go off when the engine is turned over, and then comes back on about 3-4 seconds later. It will do this repeatedly. Cam Belt was replaced by volvo main dealer when I bought the car 2 years ago (about 30,000 miles ago). DBSVolvo acknowledged and thanked for this suggestion

RE: gerrsvolvo and coil testing
Thanks gerrsvolvo, if you have the information at hand that'd be great. My public email address is m-b-q-d-6-5-@-d-i-a-l-.-p-i-p-e-x-.-c-o-m

RE: Ben Harris and scrappie ECU
Thanks Ben, that's greatly appreciated. I may check that out. Closer to home I'm in Bury St Edmunds/Newmarket, and there's a B18E ECU on an accident damaged '88 480 at Brinkly's Stowmarket. I'm going to most likely get that and the coil tomorrow. The car's at my parents as tools are available etc. etc.

many thanks to all of you that have scratched your heads on this one.

My next avenue of approach is as follows;
a. replace the ECU with a scrappie one (may still be faulty from damp damage although not powered up.. will put in airing cupboard for a day/hair dryer etc before PSU applied)

b. replace the coil module. have to admit that I'm still iffy on this one. I'm 99% certain that coils can ALL be fired using a car battery and just a few wires.

On a final note, the most annoying thing is that I had a Volvo 480 of the exact same year and colour available to me for Â£100 a few months back. I've since had a scrape/kink in a car-park on the drivers side front wing and now this. All this could have been solved if only I'd spent that Â£100. Family was complaining about storage space etc. etc.

Also, this volvo has had work on it before on this nature, as all of the ECU sensors, airflow, flywheel etc. have been replaced and are definitely newer than the age of the vehicle. This was done by a previous owner.

I realise it is difficult for anyone to offer assistance without being in the company of the vehicle. It is otherwise in good working order and having just died suddenly it's definitely something electrical, most likely something electronic. The rain we've had recently is almost irrelevant I feel, as any car will cough and splutter when driven through 1-foot deep puddles/floods. It returned to normal last year, as it did last week. There are also no signs of any damp penetration in the vehicle. With the frost we've had, I simply start the car 10 minutes before I leave, remove the key and lock it (special feature of aworn lock barrel)

I'm wondering if it's just one of those things and the ECU has failed. Any other ideas please reply, I'll check over this weekend. Thanks.

NickyNackyNoo · Post by **NickyNackyNoo** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:39 pm

RE: ECU cover off, possible big diode failure
I'm sitting here with the ECU cover off, and in the light I can see that the BIG diode's sealant/gloss has possibly bubble'd due to heat. The sealant that they gloss over the whole circuit board is definitely not shiny like the rest of the board. No board heat damage is evident. There is no side of cracking on the underside of the board.

Am removing the diode for testing now.....

It's a working diode!!