B20F rough running....ish

All the information you need on engine-problems is here. The engine includes the Turbo-charger, airco and everything else you'll find under the bonnet.

Moderators: jifflemon, coyote1980, Rachel

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:12 am

First of all, that might be a slightly misleading title :lol:
Brief overview:
Car starts fine. Occasionally she doesn't like a hot re-start after 15 mins standing, but I'm putting that down to fuel evaporation as shes fine second turn of the key .
There is a LITTLE bit of rev fluctuation at idle (850-1100 maybe) but nothing major.
Fuel economy is poor, but I have a heavy right foot so I've never worried about it, but I'll mention it incase it helps :)
The issue I'm having though is between 2000 and 3000 revs, the car is virtually undriveable. Essentially she kangaroos REALY badly, to the point where you need to dip the clutch, drop the revs, let it settle and start again, which isn't fun in traffic :eek:
I suppose the best way of describing would be it's like being it the car with a learner that hasn't worked out how the clutch works yet.
I've checked and cleaned the ICV and it hasn't made any difference after the first mile with a cold engine.
Any ideas on what to check/ clean/ replace would be great, It might be a poor description, so please ask for any clarification, my brain to hand coordination isn't always the best :lol:
Also, mechanicals I'm pretty much ok with but electrics will need a bit more patience, I can rewire a house but car electrics confuse the heck out of me :cryhard:
Thanks in advance,
Dekk
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2464
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by jifflemon » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:20 am

between 2-3 is at ALL throttle angles?

Partial opening/full throttle?

Hows the electrical side of things? Any recent cap/rotor/plug lead & plug replacements?

arthuy
Advanced 480 rookie
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:02 pm

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by arthuy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:45 am

have you pulled the spark plugs?

I had to re gap mine recently and running much better, car was missing a bit and felt lumpy.

you can check the fault codes and see what is recorded.

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:22 am

jifflemon wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:20 am
between 2-3 is at ALL throttle angles?

Partial opening/full throttle?

Hows the electrical side of things? Any recent cap/rotor/plug lead & plug replacements?
All Throttle angles? What do you mean? It doesn't seem to matter how you use the throttle except for the brief chance I've had to try full throttle ( I live in an area that has lots of average speed cameras so I cant really test it close to home and I can't drive it anywhere that I could test it :wall: :lol:
It doesn't happen " on the drive" there you get 'perfect' throttle response, it only happens when under load.
It feels like a fuel/ air starvation thing. Air filter is new, fuel filter is new, plugs and leads aren't new but fairly recent and nothing has been fiddled with. I have checked them and given everything a clean where I felt it might help. As I say the icv has been cleaned as well.
I don't think I mentioned it but it's crept up on me a bit and got progressively worse thinking about it now. It had a habit of doing it once or twice changing up from 2nd to 3rd when getting up some speed but it only happened a couple of times and a quick blip and all was well. Its one of those things you kind of get used to when its your daily that suddenly becomes an issue the minute you stop using her.
Electrically, I think shes pretty sound, as I say I'm not that great with car electrics , to the point where unless its checking continuity my multi metre might as well speak cantonese :cryhard:
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:23 am

arthuy wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:45 am
have you pulled the spark plugs?

I had to re gap mine recently and running much better, car was missing a bit and felt lumpy.

you can check the fault codes and see what is recorded.
I haven't touched the plugs recently,
I've seen a couple of mentions of the code reading, how do you do this on a 480?
Probably something I should get my head around.
Cheers
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

User avatar
dcwalker
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: York

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dcwalker » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:56 am

Right - first stop now is definitely to check the codes.

On the N/S strut pillar under the bonnet you'll see a small black box. That's the diagnostic code reader - it works with a little flashing light which translate to error codes.

There is plenty on here and the main site about the system and how to operate it, but for starters:
  • Open box, plug the little connector that is stored in the lid into socket "2".
    Turn on ignition (don't start car) and after about 10 seconds press and hold the button next to the little red light for about 2 seconds (between 1 and 3 is the formal instruction!).
    The red light should start to flash.
    If it flashes once, pause, once, pause, once that means there are no codes stored.
    If it flashes any other combination (eg twice, pause, once, pause, once) that is an error code.
    Press the button again for 2 seconds and see if it flashes the same or different - there may be more than one error.
It sounds (and is) a rather clunky system but it was the height of sophistication in its day and actually, if it remains fully functioning, you can do an awful lot with it.

You can check the error codes for yourself on the site, or else just post back here what they are and I'll translate them for you.

Good luck!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras & 2007 V50 SE Sport
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:09 am

Cheers David, I'll see if I can find it and get any joy in the next day or two then report back.
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

User avatar
dcwalker
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: York

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dcwalker » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:10 am

dekkb wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:09 am
Cheers David, I'll see if I can find it and get any joy in the next day or two then report back.
Great - we can look at what the little blinking light says then...

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras & 2007 V50 SE Sport
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

User avatar
brinkie
480 Connoisseur
Posts: 857
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:20 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by brinkie » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:04 am

My best bet would be the oxygen sensor (lambda sond), a faulty sensor usually gives bad performance around 2000-3000 rpm. But that should be recorded in the fault codes.
Robert.

Present cars: 1994 Volvo 480 GT 2.0i, 1999 Volvo S70 2.5 Europa, 2010 Volvo V70 2.0F Momentum

User avatar
dcwalker
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: York

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dcwalker » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:05 am

brinkie wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:04 am
My best bet would be the oxygen sensor (lambda sond), a faulty sensor usually gives bad performance around 2000-3000 rpm. But that should be recorded in the fault codes.
Robert, I think you read my mind! Just resolved a running problem in the "new" 440 and the example code I chose was that which had stuck in my memory. The oxygen sensor was completely broken when I checked - replacement has made a world of difference (or at least, given all the things II've been doing, contributed greatly to the improvement...)

It'll be interesting to see what error codes are returned.

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras & 2007 V50 SE Sport
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:23 pm

OK, I had half an hour this afternoon so I've had a quick look at the codes. As mentioned a slightly clunky system, but it works and I quite like morse code :lol:
I could do with clearing the codes and trying to drive it, then testing again as I haven't got a clue how long it may have been since it was tested or cleared last but so far I have:
Socket
1) no flashes 1-1-1 or otherwise.
2)1-2-1 air pressure sensor?
2-1-2 oxygen sensor?
4-1-1 throttle valve sensor?
3) no flashes
5) 4-4-4?
4-5-1?
6) no flashes
7) no flashes
Does this add up to what you guys were thinking it might be? Thanks for your help.
Apologies if this looks odd I've had to post from my phone as I forgot the laptop 😂
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

User avatar
dcwalker
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: York

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dcwalker » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:00 pm

dekkb wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:23 pm
OK, I had half an hour this afternoon so I've had a quick look at the codes. As mentioned a slightly clunky system, but it works and I quite like morse code :lol:
I could do with clearing the codes and trying to drive it, then testing again as I haven't got a clue how long it may have been since it was tested or cleared last but so far I have:
Socket
1) no flashes 1-1-1 or otherwise.
2)1-2-1 air pressure sensor?
2-1-2 oxygen sensor?
4-1-1 throttle valve sensor?
3) no flashes
5) 4-4-4?
4-5-1?
6) no flashes
7) no flashes
Does this add up to what you guys were thinking it might be? Thanks for your help.
Apologies if this looks odd I've had to post from my phone as I forgot the laptop 😂
Well done Dekk.

You won't get anything from 1 or 6 - they are for the remote immobiliser/alarm unit that was on the late 440/460s and only ever an option on the 480, and cruise control. 3 is for the ABS and 7 is for the SRS (airbag)...do you have these?

Socket 2 is the one for the engine management:
121 - air pressure sensor - the black box just in front of the relay box marked "GM". Check the electrical connection is tight and the vacuum pipe to it isn't frayed at either end or blocked.
212 - I have just had to put a new oxygen sensor on the 440 - it had completely broken up, Best first step is get under and check it is still physically there and in one piece! Have you had the green lambda/emission light come on at all recently?
411 - TPS - the plug connector or the unit itself may well be full of oil - again, a case of physically checking.

As you say, though, these may be old codes. Clear the codes, drive the car and then check again...certainly none of these things, if faulty, will be helping the car's running though!

Socket 5 tests the CEM:
444 - faulty windscreen wiper output signal
451 - faulty rear window wiper output signal

Do you have any issues with the wipers at all? Through the CEM they are linked of course (rear on automatically when reverse gear and wipers on; the synchronisation of intermittent wipes). Again, though, these might be old codes.

All sockets should clear in the same way as per on the site.

Let us know how you get on!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras & 2007 V50 SE Sport
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:23 am

No None of those fancy bits :lol:
CEM ones are interesting because we had issues with the CEM when we got her back on the road. She uses a "new" CEM with a jumper lead. The old one most things worked but wouldn't start the car so we swapped it out. The new one needed an extra live wire to the starter (I think) to enable the car to start because it seems to have some kind of immoboliser on it??? HOWEVER!!! I've never had intermittent wipers despite swapping stalks etc and I've never had rear wipers but put that down to good old dodgy wiring maybe that's something I need to look at again, or just do a wiper delete :lol:

I won't be able to get on her for a few days now but I'll have a good look at the possible issues and give everything a good clean then see where we are.
I haven't had any lights come on yet in relation to 212 but again, it'll get checked.
I had to move her yesterday and it must be getting worse as idle was all over the place while she was sat while is was opening the gates.
Also , I'm beginning to doubt they're old codes as the garage that re-commissioned her are a classic Volvo specialist and oddly know a lot about 480's so, knowing Tim he checked and cleared everything. Not something you could say about most garages, even in the '90s :rofl:

Again, many thanks for your help and I'll update after i get chance to poke about and clean things.
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

jifflemon
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2464
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:03 am

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by jifflemon » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:12 am

I'd be tempted to say the rear wiper ones are more likely to be a break in the wiring hatch loom.

User avatar
dcwalker
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: York

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dcwalker » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:37 am

jifflemon wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:12 am
I'd be tempted to say the rear wiper ones are more likely to be a break in the wiring hatch loom.
I totally agree with you on the rear wiper - check the loom first, Dekk, they usually break up. Lots on here about that...

You talk about the CEM and then mention starting - sorry if this is obvious, but you are aware that there is a "CEM" and an "ECU"? The CEM controls all the functions like wipers etc: hence the codes there about the wipers. CEM lives up the LHS passenger footwell. Rear wiper is usually wiring, but lack of front intermittent could be connected, or could well be that the relevant relay in the CEM has packed up. Another easy starting point for these sort of problems is to try with another CEM (if you have one!).

The ECU (RHS, driver's footwell) controls the fuel/ignition system - the engine side of things, if you like. When you talk about jumper leads, trouble with the starter, an immobiliser etc, that sounds more like the ECU than the CEM. All of the components we were talking about above with error codes may have issues, but alternatively the ECU itself might just be slowly giving up the ghost. Again, you may find that a replacement ECU is the answer - if you want to explore that I can help you there...

It's useful to know that nothing from sockets 1, 3, 6 & 7 is as it should be!

Keep us posted anyway - fingers crossed we can get your 480 running properly again soon!

David
Current: 1994 480 GT, 1996 460 CD & 1997 440 LE with lots of optional extras & 2007 V50 SE Sport
Previous: Celebration 331 (re-homed with Richard S), Celebration 467 (returned to Martin Mc); Celebration 346 (re-homed with Alan480); Celebration 269 (scrapped abandoned project), Celebration 73 (sold on after 6 years), 1992 ES, 1988 ES - and numerous other non-480 Volvos!

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:02 am

jifflemon wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:12 am
I'd be tempted to say the rear wiper ones are more likely to be a break in the wiring hatch loom.
I think it probably is, I have a new loom ready to go but need to decide how to sort the connector. I might not bother though as I'm likely to do a wiper delete.
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:14 am

dcwalker wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:37 am

You talk about the CEM and then mention starting - sorry if this is obvious, but you are aware that there is a "CEM" and an "ECU"? The CEM controls all the functions like wipers etc: hence the codes there about the wipers. CEM lives up the LHS passenger footwell. Rear wiper is usually wiring, but lack of front intermittent could be connected, or could well be that the relevant relay in the CEM has packed up. Another easy starting point for these sort of problems is to try with another CEM (if you have one!).

The ECU (RHS, driver's footwell) controls the fuel/ignition system - the engine side of things, if you like. When you talk about jumper leads, trouble with the starter, an immobiliser etc, that sounds more like the ECU than the CEM. All of the components we were talking about above with error codes may have issues, but alternatively the ECU itself might just be slowly giving up the ghost. Again, you may find that a replacement ECU is the answer - if you want to explore that I can help you there...
There's lots I don't know yet so all info is welcome. I'll try and get some photos of the patch cable/ jumper lead so you can see what I mean(Jeff might develop a twitch :lol: )
I still have the original CEM but I don't know how much use that would be. I really need to sit and read a lot more about the system to get things in my head about how it works even a 480's systems are a bit modern for most of my understanding , mechanical's I'm pretty good with but any type of electrical system and I'm lost.
As I say I'll probably go quiet for a week while I try and get a look at this while juggling everything else but I really want to get her right again. Thanks for your help, Dekk
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

triumphtoledo
Started learning about 480
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:30 pm

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by triumphtoledo » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:09 am

If it helps, I have some of Volvo's genuine diagnostic kit that plugs into the socket, to save you from counting flash codes.

I also have the kit that plugs into the ECU, so you can take direct readings from it.

Even better news, I am in Coventry tomorrow morning from 10am, seeing my accountant, so I can pop over. Can only spare an hour and a half though.

Drop me a PM.

Rob

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by jamescarruthers » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:19 am

triumphtoledo wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:09 am
If it helps, I have some of Volvo's genuine diagnostic kit that plugs into the socket, to save you from counting flash codes.

I also have the kit that plugs into the ECU, so you can take direct readings from it.

Even better news, I am in Coventry tomorrow morning from 10am, seeing my accountant, so I can pop over. Can only spare an hour and a half though.

Drop me a PM.

Rob
You sound useful!
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

dekkb
480 Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:01 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: B20F rough running....ish

Post by dekkb » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:02 pm

triumphtoledo wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:09 am
If it helps, I have some of Volvo's genuine diagnostic kit that plugs into the socket, to save you from counting flash codes.

I also have the kit that plugs into the ECU, so you can take direct readings from it.

Even better news, I am in Coventry tomorrow morning from 10am, seeing my accountant, so I can pop over. Can only spare an hour and a half though.

Drop me a PM.

Rob
Messaged you Rob, cheers.
Previous: 440 turbo ( broken with an impressive loud bang) 2008
Current: 1993 480 ES
2009 Subaru Legacy sportsback (blown engine)
2004 Audi A6 avant 2.4 V6

Post Reply