Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

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Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:47 pm

Hello all

I have recently been having an issue with my 95 Celebration in that when it gets up to full operating temperature it starts to loose power if you give it harsh acceleration. Cold and normal driving is great it pulls like a train but once warmed up it's as though it is suffering from some sort of fuel starvation could anyone give me some pointers...

The things i have changed in the recent weeks are as follows

Fuel Filter
HT Leads
Distributor cap
Rotor arm
Ignition coil

I have also cleaned the ICV and the little sensor on the bottom of the throttle body that turns with the butterfly not sure what that called :wall:

And also can somebody tell me what this is for and does it need cleaning and/or replacement ?

Tia

Image
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

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jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:11 am

The 'sensor' you describe sounds like the TPS (throttle position switch). It tells the ECU when the throttle is closed (so, amongst other things, it can command the idle bypass/control valve‎ to open). 

It shouldn't need any maintenance apart from adjustment if it goes out of alignment. With the engine off and your ear next to the switch you should hear the switch click when you move the throttle a tiny bit from the rest/idle position.

I think all 480's have one that detects closed throttle and some later also have a one that does closed and open (WOT: wide open throttle). I could be wrong on the last later car statement.‎

I would have done everything you've done. I see you haven't changed, the plugs. Could it be that one has failed but is only showing itself at high temperature?

Also, I'd be tempted to measure the resistance of the coolant temperature sensor (next to spare plugs) when engine is hot and cold, to see if it is working. Also, ring out the wiring between that sensor and the ECU.‎
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:17 am

Shane_398 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:47 pm
And also can somebody tell me what this is for and does it need cleaning and/or replacement ?
By the way, your picture at the end of your post doesn't display so we can't tell what you wanted help with there.‎ It's a link to an image on your own hard drive, rather than an Internet link!
‎"C:\Users\Dylan Edwards\Pictures\Inked20181103_145201_LI.jpg"
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:26 am

Many thanks for you reply James. I'm waiting on spark plugs being delivered. I had a quick look at the temp sensor it showed cold on the dash when i unplugged it... and the temp i assumed was the correct when i plugged it back in so thought no more of it. i will get another ordered hardly going to break the bank is it :D

I'd also like to add that when it starts playing up were not talking a slight misfire i'm talking complete loss altogether car just refuses to get up and go but strangely never cuts out.. not once :-?

When it is playing up i can quite literally sit there and put my foot to the floor and it will rev up to 4000rpm then drop straight back down to anywhere between 1200 rpm and 2000rpm and run so rough that it backfires every now and even to the point where it broke one of my centre section exhaust mounts, you know the round rubber mounts that look like a small Donuts. :?

I've added a link to flickr for the the thing i'm querying circled in Red

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pcv2lgv/4 ... ed-public/
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:11 am

I can see your logic there but the temperature sensor for the engine is different to the one that the Info Centre displays!

You want the one to the right (as you look at the spark plugs, standing in front of the car). If you have a Haynes manual then you can check the figures you should expect at different temperatures.‎

‎***

‎The thing you have circled is the oil breather. It will be very very hard to remove from the engine in-situ without possibly breaking it. I'd be satisfied if you can blow with your mouth *in* to the engine and just live with it like it is. You can't get new ones. Mine was removed  and cleaned when the engine was out. I doubt it will be the cause of your fault. I think if it was blocked you'd be weeping oil out of seals.

‎***

What about your fuel pressure regulator? It might be unhappy when hot and not able to supply full pressure? It sits on the end of the fuel rail.‎ I have a brand new one for your car which I bought in error (early cars runs different pressure to the rest) if it turns out to be that. Although, you can replace a universal one I believe, set to the right pressure.

I've heard that crank position sensors can be a bit funny with heat also. Maybe take yours off and give its nose a brush or replace (cheap). ‎Easy access to the right and down of your oil breather, circled in your pic. Although your 2.0 with aircon will be harder than what I'm used to. 

There's also the MAF, but I don't really know that way of measuring inlet air so well and how a failing one would affect the car. Hopefully someone else can advise.‎

Also, recently Sylvia had awful power troubles when her catalytic converter broke up internally. But, I'd say this would be all the time and wouldn't happen just when hot, even at the start of failure. If it becomes constant as time goes on, this would be worth looking at. 
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:03 pm

Evening James many thanks for taking to time to respond and in so much detail. :D

I forgot to mention earlier i have had the crank sensor out and give a good clean as it was quite dirty, but it has not made a difference.

I'm happy after what you have said about the oil breather that its not that, At least i know what is it now :D

Now then... I have been questioning the Fuel Pressure Regulator myself because like everything else on my Engine it looks original and does get quite warm once the engines been running for a while i'd noticed.

Where abouts is the MAF sensor i'm not sure ?

The CAT seems OK I've given it a few taps and can't hear anything untoward. Same as the fuel pump... i suspect If it was suspect it would show signs all the time not just when it's hot..

Also would you happen to have a link for this temperature sensor ?

Many thanks again James
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:16 pm

The MAF (mass air flow) sensor is in line with the air intake to the engine -- it's the massive lump. I'm not so sure on how to diagnose those as my cars have measure intake air temperature rather than flow to determine fuelling. Hopefully ‎someone else can help there. 

I don't have a link for the engine temperature sensor but I'm pretty sure it is easily available for all 480's except the early ones. I'd look on Auto Doc or Mister Auto‎ for a replacement should you need one. 

Your coolant temperature sensor should be 2500 Ohms (+/- 300) at 20 deg. C‎ and is NTC (negative temperature coefficient).‎ On your B20F engine the part number was 3447882 which should help your search should you need one. 

Another thought, have you tried reading the error codes from the engine with the blink code reader on the front suspension turret, next to the battery? Might give you some clues. I'd suggest to read it, clear it then read it immediately after the hot running issue occurs again. ‎
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:27 pm

Evening James

Since my last post i have sourced a new temp sensor and fitted it, it was a bit fiddly but i managed it OK (The one at the front of the engine for the CEM not the dash sensor...)

I went out on Friday morning and if i'm honest it felt quite sluggish some of the poke had disappeared, The new temp sensor i fitted doesn't seem to have made a difference other than it's hesitance wasn't as apparent but was still there all the same. All though the more i think about it it may be my imagination.

I'm still waiting on the spark plugs from fleabay.

My next task will be replacing the crank sensor altogether. Then failing that the fuel pressure regulator.

Many Thanks for the taking the time to reply.
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:52 pm

Spark plugs are a definite and don't rule out the MAF-- maybe research on here how to test it. Keep us posted!
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:59 pm

Evening all

Just a quick update to anyone that has been following this thread, I replaced the Spark Plugs yesterday and unfortunately they don't seem to have made any difference to the running of the car, It's still being hesitant under load, So i guess i will check the MAF sensor next as you suggest James...

Can somebody point me in the direction of where the MAF is on a 2.0 please

Many Thanks
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

Robou
Knows an Aerodeck isn't a 480
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Robou » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:08 pm

The MAF does not exist.
Too old to bother
480 Turbo midst '91

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jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:03 am

Robou wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:08 pm
The MAF does not exist.
Is that just on Turbos? I've never had a 2.0
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Alan 480
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am
Location: Aberdeen

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Alan 480 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:14 pm

there is an AIR temperature sensor on the two litre, front of the flexible hose that goes from air filter across to the throttle body.

HBOL will have approx values (I'll try and look tonight)

edit

air flow temperature sensor (NOT FLOW)
2500 oms +/- 300 ohms, I have NO idea if this is at 20C or what (the temperature sender is rated also at 2500ohm, but a note says 'at 20C', so take your pick.

maybe wrong tree?
Alan

480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:32 pm

Thanks Alan I've a HBOL here with me i'll have a read see what i can find.

Would anybody happen to have a link to fuel pressure regulators ?

Are they specific to the 2.0 480's or is there a universal one that will work just the same ??

Many Thanks
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:55 pm

I have a brand new fuel pressure regulator that you could try. It is suitable for the 2.0 engine. I bought it in error. Are you anywhere near Cambridge? 

As far as universal goes, I'm sure there used to be universal ones that would fit straight to our fuel rail for sale on eBay. Now all I can see on eBay are compatible fuel rail adapters that would then let you put on another universal regulator.‎

Also, sorry for the confusion re: the MAF. I had a look inside one of Jaster's 2.0 engine bays and realise the ECU measures air flow by taking the temperature of the intake just like the 1.7 normally aspirated engines.

I would make sure you've measured and verified all of your sensors before you try the fuel pressure regulator.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:31 pm

Evening James, Unfortunately I'm up in the Northwest In between Bolton and Wigan.

I will dig out the multi-meter and start going thru things one by one before i buy anything else...

Can i ask IS there a definitive list of sensors to go thru ??? I have a HBOL to hand here... are ALL the sensor values in there ?

i have a free day tomorrow so i could probably get them all checked throughout the day as well as getting Henry hoover out and giving the inside a tidy up :)
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:48 pm

How about this little shortcut? Why not start tomorrow with reading the fault codes from the engine computer?‎

I've got a funny feeling that will save you a lot of time rather than reading the sensor resistances for yourself. If you can report back the codes, I can send you the ‎full troubleshooting for that section (I'll take a picture of the right page in the book). 

If there are no codes, then you can go about the more laborious testing of each sensor.

I'll have to work out how to scan this 80 page Volvo Green Book which contains the troubleshooting for the fuel injection system rather than dish out the information bit by bit!

Image
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:51 pm

1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

User avatar
jamescarruthers
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2501
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:52 pm

Image
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)

Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)

Shane_398
Started learning about 480
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Atherton, Manchester

Re: Loss of Power when engine is hot... fine when Cold

Post by Shane_398 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:01 pm

Hi James, you have just reminded me...... I forgot to mention.... :wall:

I did check the fault codes but i didn't get anything back from them any of them tried all 3 sockets..... literally everything was Fault Code Free which i must admit i thought was odd given its a 23yo car

How long are fault codes stored for ? I.E Is it reset every time the car is Started/Shutdown Or is it Stored until they a physically cleared and or Battery reset...

Many Thanks
Shane

95, 480 Celebration 398/480. 2007-Present day
07, Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Limited. 2016-Present day
02, Astra 1.6 8v 2005-17
01, Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD Orvis
95, 460 Si 1.8i 2006-08
98, Astra 2.0 DTI Estate
91, 440 1.7GLE 2006
90, Peugeot405 Si 2004/5

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