warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
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- doingitsideways
- 480 Expert
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- Location: Manchester
warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Hi all.
I've taken on Jamesy12345's 460 Turbo and to a certain extent eggs is eggs, so I'm asking around here if anyone's any ideas as it kinda has me and James stumped!
So... Cold starting is fine and it settles down to a nice steady idle.
However, once warm the idle stays a little high and because it's an auto, surges and almost tugs against the gearbox when stationary in drive, to the point that it'll do around 15mph on it's own and when held stationary and knocked into neutral the revs will kick up to almost 2k, it's fighting so hard.
Needless to say, it's making manouvers almost an impossibility.
At the same time, warm starting is really bad, getting worse with a hotter engine.
When warm, it will start straight away and idle a little rough for a few seconds, then be ok.
When hot, it will fire immediately, then cut straight out, then need cranking for around 15-20 seconds (a long time on the starter when you think about it) then it will start to a horrible, lumpy, up and down idle for around a minute and it absolutely stinks of unburnt fuel.
Also, while cruising and coming off the throttle, the engine seems to surge slightly, almost like it's hunting back and forth repeatedly between 2 gears. It seems to do this toward the bottom of the rev range in each gear.
Fuel economy is a hilarious 11mpg too pottering around town, but not too bad on a run.
So, mine and James' first thought was a bad Lambda, so I've changed that for a nice Bosch number.
I've reset/adjusted the AMM to standard spec. (both with an ECU reset)
Idle valve is fairly new and Bosch if memory serves.
Does the same on regular or super unleaded. Not tried it on diesel just yet!
As far as I can tell, the car is mechanically sound.
One thing I have noticed is that the indicated engine temperature hovers around 73-75°c when cruising, but goes up fairly quickly to around 88°c when stationary for a couple of minutes.
When I turn the ignition on a moment after a hot shut off, it reads around 93°c, dropping quickly to around 88°c after starting.
I was thinking maybe my coolant temp sensor is a bit wonky??
I only thought of this because my fan has kicked in at an indicated 73°c before now! (my 2.0 Celebration doesn't until gone 90°c)
Perhaps that doesn't hold water though, because it would still start ok if it was reading at 90-odd degrees, as it wouldn't be trying to start on choke as was my train of thought.
Hmm...
Any ideas anyone??
Sorry for the long-assed post!!
Thanks,
Steve
I've taken on Jamesy12345's 460 Turbo and to a certain extent eggs is eggs, so I'm asking around here if anyone's any ideas as it kinda has me and James stumped!
So... Cold starting is fine and it settles down to a nice steady idle.
However, once warm the idle stays a little high and because it's an auto, surges and almost tugs against the gearbox when stationary in drive, to the point that it'll do around 15mph on it's own and when held stationary and knocked into neutral the revs will kick up to almost 2k, it's fighting so hard.
Needless to say, it's making manouvers almost an impossibility.
At the same time, warm starting is really bad, getting worse with a hotter engine.
When warm, it will start straight away and idle a little rough for a few seconds, then be ok.
When hot, it will fire immediately, then cut straight out, then need cranking for around 15-20 seconds (a long time on the starter when you think about it) then it will start to a horrible, lumpy, up and down idle for around a minute and it absolutely stinks of unburnt fuel.
Also, while cruising and coming off the throttle, the engine seems to surge slightly, almost like it's hunting back and forth repeatedly between 2 gears. It seems to do this toward the bottom of the rev range in each gear.
Fuel economy is a hilarious 11mpg too pottering around town, but not too bad on a run.
So, mine and James' first thought was a bad Lambda, so I've changed that for a nice Bosch number.
I've reset/adjusted the AMM to standard spec. (both with an ECU reset)
Idle valve is fairly new and Bosch if memory serves.
Does the same on regular or super unleaded. Not tried it on diesel just yet!
As far as I can tell, the car is mechanically sound.
One thing I have noticed is that the indicated engine temperature hovers around 73-75°c when cruising, but goes up fairly quickly to around 88°c when stationary for a couple of minutes.
When I turn the ignition on a moment after a hot shut off, it reads around 93°c, dropping quickly to around 88°c after starting.
I was thinking maybe my coolant temp sensor is a bit wonky??
I only thought of this because my fan has kicked in at an indicated 73°c before now! (my 2.0 Celebration doesn't until gone 90°c)
Perhaps that doesn't hold water though, because it would still start ok if it was reading at 90-odd degrees, as it wouldn't be trying to start on choke as was my train of thought.
Hmm...
Any ideas anyone??
Sorry for the long-assed post!!
Thanks,
Steve
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- jamesy12345
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Not an easy one is it! I tried another AMM/MAF in there also but no joy, yes the ICV is a new Bosch one (was on when I got the car). Like we talked about probably the coolant sensor is worth a go - 73 degrees is too low nice one for spotting that. Next stop would be checking the wiring..........
I used to take it out of drive just before I wanted to stop you need to judge it correctly though otherwise I pulled up short and looked like a bit of a twerp
Good luck hope you have the time to do what I didn't with some help from the guys & girls
I used to take it out of drive just before I wanted to stop you need to judge it correctly though otherwise I pulled up short and looked like a bit of a twerp
Good luck hope you have the time to do what I didn't with some help from the guys & girls
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- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Yeah, I'll get to the bottom of it eventually!
Noticed this morning that the thermostat opened at an indicated 71°c, then dropped to around 65°c before creeping back up.
Had a mooch around, not really much available in the search for a sensor.
Steve
Noticed this morning that the thermostat opened at an indicated 71°c, then dropped to around 65°c before creeping back up.
Had a mooch around, not really much available in the search for a sensor.
Steve
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- jamesy12345
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
What do you mean, Yardy? You can get them from Fleabay, I've got a spare somewhere plus also one attached to OBS
Something like that
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VE375008-Volv ... 477wt_1399
Or did u mean where is it located.......flywheel end of the cylinder head, near the spark plug
Something like that
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VE375008-Volv ... 477wt_1399
Or did u mean where is it located.......flywheel end of the cylinder head, near the spark plug
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- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Wasn't sure which were for the fan and which for management.
I messaged a seller on ebay (one with a shop, selling Facet parts etc, so a legit company) to look up for me which of his selection of items I needed for the management, not the fan
He replied that none were appropriate for my needs, one of which looked identical to the one you linked to.
Hmm... The mind boggles!
Think I'll get one anyway for what it's worth.
Anyone know how many coolant sensors there are?
I.e are there 2 or 3? Fan, ecu and guage/info centre?
Might also be worth checking if it's got the right idle valve, as I believe the turbo ones are different to the rest.
Anyone know the a Bosch part numbers by any chance?
Steve
I messaged a seller on ebay (one with a shop, selling Facet parts etc, so a legit company) to look up for me which of his selection of items I needed for the management, not the fan
He replied that none were appropriate for my needs, one of which looked identical to the one you linked to.
Hmm... The mind boggles!
Think I'll get one anyway for what it's worth.
Anyone know how many coolant sensors there are?
I.e are there 2 or 3? Fan, ecu and guage/info centre?
Might also be worth checking if it's got the right idle valve, as I believe the turbo ones are different to the rest.
Anyone know the a Bosch part numbers by any chance?
Steve
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- glasgowjim
- 480 Is my middle name
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
In a 480 there are 3 temperature sensors the one for the fan is about 3cm in diameter and is located on the actual radiator itself .
The temp sensor for the instrument pod is at the right hand side of the engine as you look at it standing in front of passenger side wheel it has a single wire spade terminal on it . The engine management temp sensor is to the left hand side under or about spark plug 1.
there are 2 types of engine management temp sensor one with a blue plastic top and the turbo one has a black plastic top if my memory serves me right . they also differ by the length of the inserted body.
I will check my sensor box for spares tonight.
The temp sensor for the instrument pod is at the right hand side of the engine as you look at it standing in front of passenger side wheel it has a single wire spade terminal on it . The engine management temp sensor is to the left hand side under or about spark plug 1.
there are 2 types of engine management temp sensor one with a blue plastic top and the turbo one has a black plastic top if my memory serves me right . they also differ by the length of the inserted body.
I will check my sensor box for spares tonight.
- jamesy12345
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Here's a shot of mine, I don't have the part numbers but can check for you later on
Sorry I didn't reply to your email - my ovi mail account is knackered for some reason.....Java or something
Anyway.....see the yellow taped wire on the right hand side of the photo? That is to the temperature sensor I was on about at the flywheel end
If Jim knows of another one then fair enough I've never noticed this one
There's also another one that controls the electric pump on Ray! But this shouldn't affect anything, anyway your pump works
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Id try eliminating that engine breather aswell for now. Mine had a dodgy diaphragm and caused all sorts of running issues.
Just take the black thing off the top for now and block holes coming from it.
Just take the black thing off the top for now and block holes coming from it.
- spree
- Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
I now have this same issue! So my best bet is to have a go at changing the sensor under spark plug one for the ecu I guess? Will that one on ebay not do the job then?
- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Mine seems to be that the two pinned sensor (black top) is below spark 4, as James suggests, near the thermostat, flywheel end of the engine.
I don't know, but they've gotta be worth a try for what they cost, hey?!
Steve
Edit:
Just ordered one, had a little Paypal balance, not even God knows how, so cost me a whole pound!!
I don't know, but they've gotta be worth a try for what they cost, hey?!
Steve
Edit:
Just ordered one, had a little Paypal balance, not even God knows how, so cost me a whole pound!!
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- spree
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
So you have ordered that one from ebay?
- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Yeah, should be here Monday/Tuesday hopefully.
I'll let everyone know how it gets on
Steve
I'll let everyone know how it gets on
Steve
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- jamesy12345
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Aye let us know, had me stumped this one
Current:
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Previous:
440 2 litre, 440 Turbo, 460 Turbo, 480 Turbo x2, 854 T-5R, S40 T4, V40 T4, S70 T5 & R, V70 R x2, S60 R
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Previous:
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- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
So, update time...
I seem to have got to the bottom of this one
I bought the ebay-tastic coolant temp sensor and yesterday I managed to free a little time to fit it.
Came to remove the plug from the sensor and the wiring promptly fell apart in my hands!
"Hmm..." was my immediate thought.
A quick bit of bodgery to get the cables back into the plug and hey presto, nice smooth idle with a vastly improved mpg!!
So I'd check that out Spree if I were you, especially if it's suddenly started playing up.
If the connection goes, the ecu would presume the engine is cold and constantly run on choke.
Bit of a design flaw in the loom really, on the 460 at least the cable to the sensor is too tightly strung into the rest of the loom.
Gotta love 400 series wiring huh?!
Steve
I seem to have got to the bottom of this one
I bought the ebay-tastic coolant temp sensor and yesterday I managed to free a little time to fit it.
Came to remove the plug from the sensor and the wiring promptly fell apart in my hands!
"Hmm..." was my immediate thought.
A quick bit of bodgery to get the cables back into the plug and hey presto, nice smooth idle with a vastly improved mpg!!
So I'd check that out Spree if I were you, especially if it's suddenly started playing up.
If the connection goes, the ecu would presume the engine is cold and constantly run on choke.
Bit of a design flaw in the loom really, on the 460 at least the cable to the sensor is too tightly strung into the rest of the loom.
Gotta love 400 series wiring huh?!
Steve
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- jamesy12345
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Good on yer! Nice to see Ray is getting the best of care at Chateau Sideways!
I never do a great deal of tight town/city parking (don't drive to work or anything like that, shopping is usually done at on foot or at Asda/Morrisons where they have handy big spaces right at the front with funny symbols painted on the tarmac)........but I bet he is easier to maneuver at low speeds now!!
I never do a great deal of tight town/city parking (don't drive to work or anything like that, shopping is usually done at on foot or at Asda/Morrisons where they have handy big spaces right at the front with funny symbols painted on the tarmac)........but I bet he is easier to maneuver at low speeds now!!
Current:
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Previous:
440 2 litre, 440 Turbo, 460 Turbo, 480 Turbo x2, 854 T-5R, S40 T4, V40 T4, S70 T5 & R, V70 R x2, S60 R
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Subaru Legacy '05
Mazda RX-7 '93
Renault 5 '84
Previous:
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- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Ha ha ha... Chateau Sideways. Love it!!
Aye, he is a bit more parking freindly to be sure.
I too utilise those spaces of which you speak occasionally, handy when in the 480 with the 38 foot doors.
Never figured that symbol out either, but when I get funny looks for parking there I utilise an expertly crafted comedy limp so they'll feel sorry for me!
Aye, he is a bit more parking freindly to be sure.
I too utilise those spaces of which you speak occasionally, handy when in the 480 with the 38 foot doors.
Never figured that symbol out either, but when I get funny looks for parking there I utilise an expertly crafted comedy limp so they'll feel sorry for me!
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- jamesy12345
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
LOL....or you could just buy an 8 quid booster seat from Halfords and park in the 'mother and child spaces'
They are big doors aren't they, on Pollution mine has folded back at some point in her life and damaged the front wing.....no matter I have spare, which I am carefully colour matching by allowing it to fade in the sunlight
For Ray the 460, like I said on the emails, the previous owner was obviously baffled about the high idle too, cos when I got it the MAF was adjusted as low as it would go, the ICV was new and plus you found the lambda had been changed out for the cheapo one
Good effort there
They are big doors aren't they, on Pollution mine has folded back at some point in her life and damaged the front wing.....no matter I have spare, which I am carefully colour matching by allowing it to fade in the sunlight
For Ray the 460, like I said on the emails, the previous owner was obviously baffled about the high idle too, cos when I got it the MAF was adjusted as low as it would go, the ICV was new and plus you found the lambda had been changed out for the cheapo one
Good effort there
Current:
Volvo S60 '04
Renault 21 '91
Subaru Legacy '05
Mazda RX-7 '93
Renault 5 '84
Previous:
440 2 litre, 440 Turbo, 460 Turbo, 480 Turbo x2, 854 T-5R, S40 T4, V40 T4, S70 T5 & R, V70 R x2, S60 R
Volvo S60 '04
Renault 21 '91
Subaru Legacy '05
Mazda RX-7 '93
Renault 5 '84
Previous:
440 2 litre, 440 Turbo, 460 Turbo, 480 Turbo x2, 854 T-5R, S40 T4, V40 T4, S70 T5 & R, V70 R x2, S60 R
- spree
- Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
doingitsideways wrote:So, update time...
I seem to have got to the bottom of this one
I bought the ebay-tastic coolant temp sensor and yesterday I managed to free a little time to fit it.
Came to remove the plug from the sensor and the wiring promptly fell apart in my hands!
"Hmm..." was my immediate thought.
A quick bit of bodgery to get the cables back into the plug and hey presto, nice smooth idle with a vastly improved mpg!!
So I'd check that out Spree if I were you, especially if it's suddenly started playing up.
If the connection goes, the ecu would presume the engine is cold and constantly run on choke.
Bit of a design flaw in the loom really, on the 460 at least the cable to the sensor is too tightly strung into the rest of the loom.
Gotta love 400 series wiring huh?!
Steve
Only just seen this!
Nice one!
So you didn't even fit the new sensor in the end?
Ok I'm going to have a look. If the wiring is ok I may swap the sensor from my new 480 to see if it really is that. The hot starting issue can be stressful!
- doingitsideways
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
Nope, sensor is still sat in my kitchen, in it's box.
If you find the wiring is ok and the sensor turns out to be duff, you can have this one for the cost of postage.
Steve
If you find the wiring is ok and the sensor turns out to be duff, you can have this one for the cost of postage.
Steve
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical fault!"
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
Hammers can't fix a 480!!!
- spree
- Can tell where the 480 was built
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Re: warm b18ft surging idle and bad starting
That's very good of you mate! I will let you know.doingitsideways wrote:Nope, sensor is still sat in my kitchen, in it's box.
If you find the wiring is ok and the sensor turns out to be duff, you can have this one for the cost of postage.
Steve