Broken breather thing

All the information you need on engine-problems is here. The engine includes the Turbo-charger, airco and everything else you'll find under the bonnet.

Moderators: jifflemon, coyote1980, Rachel

User avatar
rpruen
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 2299
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:09 pm
Location: Near Bristol (uk)

Post by rpruen » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:47 am

pol wrote:Ok, that makes sense.

Non-return valves are also known as check valves by the way.

There are a couple on the bay but don't know if theyd be any good...

pol
I used a phnumatic flow regulator designed for changing the operating speed of a ram. It is adjustable flow in one direction, and free flowing in the other. Setting it to zero flow in the forward direction makes it a NRV. It's rated at 10 bar, and is ok with oil.

The seals in ones made for water may be eaten by the oil, so it would be best to avoid those.

Richard
Car Status: Squashed :(
Now have 765 GLE 2.8 V6

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:03 pm

I bought a plumbing / water check valve today... Played around with it for a while and binned the idea! - Instead, I found the diaphram valve next to it, connecting to the idle valve was completely knackered not air tight in the slightest. Removed it.

I have used my re-circulating valve in its place, it is fitted back to front in the usual place after the maf. (I did have this blanked off for the chavvy dump valve anyway) and i've blanked the other hole past the maf where the feed from the idle valve normally connected... So then i've run the fat hose back from the other side of the re-circ valve.

I've blanked the manifold where it would have joined the breather, and the breather is connected directly to the turbo inlet as normal in one direction.

Itis idling perfectly, strong vacuum operating the re-circ diaphram and atmospheric valve nicely.

I'll post some pics later!

pol

User avatar
crispy-d
Knows an Aerodeck isn't a 480
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:09 am
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk

Post by crispy-d » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:11 pm

That's good news, Pol. So it looks like that diaphram thing on the idle valve really does cause problems. Was going to buy another like Rachel has, but have just thought that it's likely to break again surely. So I might go the recirc valve route. Glad you got yours done as well.
Volvo 340 GL 1.7 :) - Nice (RWD missed) - sold
Volvo 460 SI Turbo ('Rich Mod' / 2.5" Longlife SS exhaust / 710N CBV / Cold Air Intake) - (Turbo missed) - sold
Volvo S90 3.0 CD 24v (RWD back again! LOVING the straight six :) ) - is 16mpg that bad...? - sold
BMW E34 540i 6-speed Manual V8 :) - sold
BMW E39 M5
Land Rover 110 V8

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:48 pm

It's definately the way forward! Thanks to rpruen for the suggestion..

I still dont see how the oil sep getting sucked into the manifold at idle is a good design - i like my new re-designed pipes! It only cost a few squid for various bits of hose from my local auto factors..

The pics on my phone are rubbish so i wont bother posting them. I'll take some better ones another time..

pol

User avatar
Melvin480
Knows where Volvo is from
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:04 am
Location: Zutphen, the Netherlands

Post by Melvin480 » Wed May 02, 2007 7:23 am

I thought my breather valve was broken too. I could blow through the hose from the intake manifold. So i've found second hand two other valves, but those dit exactly the same. So, I've opened one of the valve's to find out how it works:

Picture (I'm not allowed to post images, try to fix this later...)
[img]h%20t%20t%20p%20://i16.tinypic.%20c%20o%20m%20/61k44jn.jpg[/img]
Can anyone with more than 10 posts, post this picture for me? :)
You can see the picture two posts below, thanks vins480t

The picture shows that it is always possible to blow through the pipe where the hose from the intake manifold is attached to. There is a direct connection between this pipe and the pipe where the hose to turbo intake is attached to through a small hole.

When the engine is running, there is always a low pressure in the horizontal pipe (negative pressure? vacuum? I don't know the right word at this moment :) ) Due to this the diaphram is sucked to the pipe and air can't flow between them anymore. Air is still allowed to flow through the small hole. When the crackcase builds up pressure, the diaphram is pushed back so the gases can escape more easy.

When the turbo is not building up pressure in the intake, air is sucked through the small hole. When the turbo is pressuring the intake manifold, there is still a low pressure in the horizontal pipe in the picture. In this situation air is blown through the small hole, but it will flow away to the turbo, as in this situation the turbo is creating a low pressure at it's intake side.

My valve had a split diaphram. There was a crack at the edge. This didn't affect the way the valve works described above, but made it possible to let air flow in from outside. Air can flow through the small hole right in the picture and through the crack in the diaphram. This might affect running at idle. But, the small hole at the right is covered with insulation, so I don't know of any air is flowing in this way.
Last edited by Melvin480 on Wed May 02, 2007 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Wed May 02, 2007 7:32 am

Thanks. This is as i'd worked out but without taking the things apart. I decided its a crap design that's going to break again.

I have blanked the manifold, blanked where it joined before the turbo and venting the gasses to atmosphere via a small 13mm fitting filter.

I've replaced the other diaphram valve with another re-circulating valve.

It's working perfectly.

pol

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Wed May 02, 2007 7:52 am

Good post Melvin. thanx
never had a look at that valve
gonna check it tonight
melvin480 wrote: Image
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

User avatar
Melvin480
Knows where Volvo is from
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:04 am
Location: Zutphen, the Netherlands

Post by Melvin480 » Wed May 02, 2007 8:50 am

To take a look at the diaphram inside you have to destroy the valve. It is not made for being opened. I think a way to check the diaphram is to block two of the thee pipes en blow into the third one. If you are able to blow through it, the diaphram must be cracked. Or the plastic is cracked somewhere. Either way something is broken en there is an air leak.

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Wed May 02, 2007 9:08 am

the pressure in the engine presses the oilfumes through the valve and the vuccum in the inlet sucks in. right?
but where does the pressure in the engine come from then?
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

User avatar
Melvin480
Knows where Volvo is from
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:04 am
Location: Zutphen, the Netherlands

Post by Melvin480 » Wed May 02, 2007 11:01 am

Normally there is not much pressure in the crankcase. But gasses can leak between the piston and the cilinder. Also water vapor has to get out of the crankcase. These gasses are sucked into the inlet. It's more like they are sucked through the small holes than that they are pressed through. I guess the diaphram and spring are for a situation where a large volume of gas has to escape. Don't know when this would be.

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Wed May 02, 2007 11:35 am

on Vader Mart had taken off the whole thing and put on some filter.
But it was leaking through it so there must be some pressure there.
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Wed May 02, 2007 12:28 pm

See above!

That's what this thread was all about!

pol

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Wed May 02, 2007 1:11 pm

Have you got your pics sorted already?
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

catgroom
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 3418
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:20 pm
Location: Market Deeping
Contact:

.

Post by catgroom » Wed May 02, 2007 9:02 pm

Yes I'd really prefer to see pics of yours done Pol if its not too much trouble.

Ive left mine half done,so I dont cock it up!

Steve
I'm No Longer Here :(

http://www.volvo-480-europe.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34359&start=20

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Wed May 02, 2007 9:44 pm

Ok, here is what I have done. Not the easiest to photo as things are tucked away.
1) Here we see the idle valve.

Image
Removed is the normal diaphram and replaced with a re-circ valve which cannot be see in this picture. I have connected a long piece of hose on the end of the idle valve which has the re-circ valve on the other end, and is plumbed in here, where the normal re-circ should go for the turbo circuit only reversed:

2)
Image
It could also be plumbed in to the opening behind the yellow/white vacuum line. I will be moving mine there when i get hold of another re-circ valve as currently I still have an atmospheric one.

3)
Image
I have removed a pipe from there which was connected to the oil sep / breather valve. Connect this to your new re-circ valve then to the idle valve.

4)
Image

Manifold is blanked where it joined the oil sep / breather valve. Little filter fits on top of the oil sep.

5)
Image

Little filter and hose removed that connected the oil sep valve to the hole in pic 3.

It would be better if I had a standard re-circ valve installed where it should normally be which i will be doing shortly...

Do you see?

pol

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Thu May 03, 2007 7:40 am

looks good!
i was woundering...
connecting the toppipe of the oilsep to the original hose (that one with the foam on it) and connect the other side to a 2nd recirc. wicht then connects to the hole in pic 3.
that will close the circuit before the turbo. the recirc will open on vaccum (trottle closed or enginebraking) and then with the enginevaccuum pre of the turbo suck the oilvapour out of the crankcase.
or am i just stupid now writing down the original idea again? :rofl:
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Thu May 03, 2007 12:04 pm

Not quite.

In that case, in that case, it'd be sucked through the turbo under vacuum (valve open) as normal design, but under load it would be trapped i think.

You could just have the oil sep join the hole in pic 3 without a valve so it is always sucked through the turbo but would probably make a mess? I tried this also and it worked but didn't like the thought of oil everywhere so changed for the filter...

pol

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Thu May 03, 2007 12:23 pm

i only want the fumes into the engine again but not throught the inlet manifold hole to prevent vac leaking there
but i dont think it is safe to let it all go through the turbo aswel as the IC
you dont want it to fill with oil :shock:
its not that easy as i also dont want it to go to atmosphere (through filter)
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

User avatar
pol
480 Is my middle name
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Eastbourne

Post by pol » Thu May 03, 2007 5:51 pm

So if you dont want it to go to the manifold, or the turbo, or to atmosphere, what are you going to do with it?!

It's good to see others playing the fun valve / vent game!

pol

User avatar
vins480t
Friend of Club 480 Europe
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:27 am
Location: Nw & St. Jland. . . Drives: a 960 . . . . On my mind: Baby in the car!

Post by vins480t » Sat May 05, 2007 6:56 am

it only leaves 1 spot. before the trottle body.
just after the IC
use a 1 way valve that opens only with pressure in the engine not vaccum or constant open
V!nc!en[color=red][b]T[/b][/color]e

Post Reply