Turbo Running Problem, Help Required

C6REW · Post by **C6REW** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:55 am

Hi All Turboheads,

I need help with some urgency. The good news is I have sold my 90' Turbo, the bad news is the new owner has experienced an immediate problem so I am out to get it sorted.

I drove the car to his house with no problems whatever and realised that I really did like the car but it had to go. He drove it the following day no problem. The next time he used it later that day it started to give bad running problems which turned into the following symptons:

Revs up to about 3,000rpm then dies, trying to get speed up is a cautious operation.

By the look of it there is a problem with the Turbo but I am guessing when I say it could be something to do with the vacuum.

Your assistance and suggestions would be most appreciated as the car is booked in for checks at the Volvo garage on Wednesday.

I have not had the time to search the site to see if this has and I am sure it has come up before. Going out now so will log on the site later today and see if I can find any info or answers from you guys.

Regards

Chris

CHESH740R · Post by **CHESH740R** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:34 pm

Well here's my guess.

Does it Have a CAT Fitted or not??? If not disregard the rest of this post, if it does then read this. (i wrote this post and then realised that being a 1990 car it may or maynot have one.) If it doesnt have a CAT then i'll have another think about the cause of the problem.

Perhaps the reason its struggling to get passed 3000 rpm could be down to the cat having died and collapsing and now its clogging the exhaust, so its not able to get rid of the exhaust gasses as easily.

I did a Cat and Exhaust on a friends mondeo recenlty and you really had to try to get it past 3000 rpm, all the cat internals were in the next silencer and restricting the flow.

Does the car accellerate normally to 3000rpm and then crap out or is the crappy performance through out the rev range.

If its throughout the rev range, then i would check for the cat, would make sense to me if this car wasnt used recently.

You take it out for a blast to deliver it and then a couple of days later of new owner enthuastically driving it blows whats left of the cat apart.

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:51 pm

Or maybe the boost pipes have come off?

volvofox · Post by **volvofox** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:32 pm

first of all you show good caracter to help this man, I would not like to "feed" the people who would not.

The problem occured in an instance, not chronicle, i mean it was there at an instant, not getting worst al the time, Am I reading right?

this means it cannot be the cat. this problem is slowly occurring.

I think its some thing electrical. like a loose contact on a sensor , the ecu, or the ignition/boost controller. (they kicked the connector loose or so behind the center tunnel mat ) Possible they drilled through a wire installing that phone holder

a hose loose is also possible.

check the exhaust for oil vapour (turbo gone)

how ever someone i know had the turbo's exhaust gasket blown. (pieces must have fallen in) and so almost all finns broke of and melted as a lump in the snail house, blocking the turbo. There was no oil in the exhaust. But It did not pull at all, especially not above 3000. maybe it has the same: check this by removing the turbo out let (pressure side) and try if you can roll the turboshaft manually. also check for axial play

wish you all the best.

hope its something silly

C6REW · Post by **C6REW** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:29 am

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. Unfortunately I have not driven the car since this problem ocurred as the new owner has been on shift work. I am hoping to have a look before it goes into the Volvo garage.

The cat going would be OK as overall this is a low cost item compared to lots of other possibilities. But it does sound like it is Turbo related and the good news is that I have all the spares required for that.

I will keep you informed and make sure I take my camera with me in case there is something to see and report on. In the meantime more thoughts would always be appreciated.

Regards

Chris

David Thornber · Post by **David Thornber** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:57 am

Sounds similar to a problem I had last year, although unusual it is worth a look. The wastegate actuating rod had snapped, resulting in no turbo pressure and therefore slug like accelaration. Check the boost gauge, mine refused to enter the yellow segment.

Another possiblity has already been mentioned, has one of the turbo - intercooler hoses come adrift?

dragon · Post by **dragon** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:58 am

I wonder if a crack in a seal has developed that can hold a certain amount of pressure, but about a certaion pressure opens and you lose the pressure/vacuum from the turbo - maybe even a cracked housing? Might just be a split host though? I think you need to look at it, and listen for leaks - maybe if you could pop it to a local garage who have the "roller ramps" so you can actually simulate driving without going anywhere so you can get your ear under the bonnet?

C6REW · Post by **C6REW** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:20 pm

Hi All,

Well this problem has been going on all this time. I have loaned the new owner my Celebration and have the Turbo in a garage next to my business unit.

The Volvo dealer that the new owner took it to said that the wastegate was stuck and it needed a new Turbo. I checked the operation of the wastegate and it was fine. None the less I persuaded the garage to replace with known good turbo and no change. The engine is running very rich and we have replaced the uppers bellows, and a number of other bits but with no joy.

I spoke to the Volvo garage in Swindon who carried out the diagnostics and explained that I have now paid good money to replace the parts they suggested but without success and they have agreed to carry out another diagnostic check tomorrow (Monday) We shall see what they find.

All very annoying and missing my Celebration but feel strongly that I cannot sell someone something that is not right.

Will keep you informed later tomorrow what has happened.

Regards

Chris

C6REW · Post by **C6REW** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:23 pm

Hi All,

Well I had an interesting but fairly fruitless meeting with the Volvo dealer today.

They confirmed that the turbo was OK and the wastegate as well. Apparantly the wastegate was sticking when they saw it but all is OK now.

They say for a 90' turbo they cannot do any diagnostics and it is about testing/replacing each sensor in turn. As I have not got my Haynes manual with me I cannot tell which two I am going to replace with my spare bits first but one is in the middle at the front of the engine and one is at the back right just off the engine and near the turbo itself. Sorry to be vague but will take some photos at the weekend and keep you informed.

It is the first time I have driven the car with the problem and the only way to drive it is as if stood on egg shells. The turbo gauge must stay in the white section, if it hits the orange the car floods with petrol and starts to stall.

Bloody pain, so if anyone has any extra ideas I would appreciate them.

I did notice that the wastegate does not appear to move when the car is stationary. Can any other turbo drivers confirm that the rod connecting to the wastegate stays relatively still when stationary and accelerating?

Regards

Chris
ps No disrespect to the Volvo Garage, Fawcetts in Swindon as they where most helpful and I am trying to borrow a manual over a weekend so I can scan it.

Murf · Post by **Murf** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:11 pm

firstly, you are a very brave and trusting man to lend this guy your celebration!!
secondly, i think that the wastegate actuator rod does not move until a certain pressure has bult up in the turbo and then it releases the excess.
under normal driving it would move when the turbo reached full boost but under non-spirited driving i dont know if it moves enough for you to actually see it move,just a small amount to release a wee bit of pressure.
unfortunately i cant go and check because i cant find a volunteer to sit in my engine bay while i scream about!!!!

dbsvolvos · Post by **dbsvolvos** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:01 pm

wastegate will start to crack at 4 psi , does the needle of the boost gauge go into the yellow , turbos dont necessarily need to blow smoke if they are knackered

the oil pipe can block so look out for that one - if it is , its definitely new turbo time and also the new pipe .

as for going rich when boost comes on , you have to look at sensors that would affect that scenario MAF, temp sensor , or throttle position sensor, have a general poke around those to see what up . The fuel pressure regulator might be faulty , i think it would provide bad fuelling at all conditions .

And if the wastegate was stuck closed , you would get loads of boost not the other way around , this part can be troublesome at times .

C6REW · Post by **C6REW** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:12 am

Fixed!!

OK The story with pictures goes like this:

1. The car which had been running OK suddenly started to have a problem when in motion and accelerating. I eventually drove it and once the turbo gauge went into the orange the engine would start to splutter and die. Careful use of the accelerator would allow the car to get up to normal driving speeds.

2. The car went to Volvo dealer in Swindon and this is their report/receipt:

http://volcano.photobucket.com/albums/v ... t_Comp.jpg

As you can see they replaced the upper bellows and carried out diagnostics that showed the problem to be the wastegate valve seized.

By the time I looked at the vehicle the wastegate appeared to be working correctly. None the less I decided the dealer must know best and tried to remove it. It was such an awkward job and the manual says remove the exhaust manifold from under the car that I took it to a small repair shop in the next business unit to mine. He suggested that the wastegate and turbo looked fine and replaced the 'breather tap' as mentioned in the report, which as the replacement one from my old turbo was so brittle it also snapped. New one cost Â£38. This made no difference.

http://volcano.photobucket.com/albums/v ... 1_Comp.jpg

3. Workshop then replaced the 'throttle valve position sensor'. This also made no difference.

4. Workshop then reluctantly replaced the turbo with wastegate. No difference.

5. At this point I confirmed with the workshop that the problem was the car was running very very rich. Plugs removed and cleaned and within a couple of minutes of running they where very dirty again. I decided that the remaining parts which I had from the old vehicle could be replaced by me which is what I set out to do on Saturday.

6. I suspected the problem may be to do with the 'fuel pressure regulator' and was pleased to note that on removal the seal was badly damaged. But it made not difference.

7. As the Volvo garage had suggested it when I spoke to them I replaced the 'idle speed regulating valve' but as I suspected this made no difference.

8. The last item I had was the 'airflow meter' and I could not see this being the problem. I removed the old one which looked very clean and in good condition and put the one from the scrapped vehicle. Success! This was the answer. What is more when I drove the car it had more performance than when I owned it.

I booted the car to clean it out and not only did it drop two gears (automatic) at 50mph but there where clouds of smoke. Obviously it had been running rich for some time and the higher revs where cleaning it out properly. Note that this car with 100,000 miles ish, and serviced some 2-3,000 miles ago has perfectly clean oil!

I do not know what the final bill from the workshop will be but I am glad to have sorted the problem and hope these notes whilst a little on the long side will help others who may have similar problems.

Final note: I mentioned in some other thread of the horrendous week I have had with cars.

A. Took this 480 back into the Volvo garage on Monday and it broke down on the way back. Turned out to be no fuel!! (Display is not working)

B. Vauxhall Omega that I got pushed off the road in before Xmas (mentioned in a thread in the wastegate) went in for repair, picked it up and it is the worst repair I have ever seen so it is going back next week.

C. Guy I sold this 480 to had borrowed my Celebration and he called me on Wednesday to say the engine had blown up! I checked it out yesterday and I have to say when I drove it with the water topped up it really did look as though the engine had gone. Clouds of what turned out to be steam coming out of the back of the car. The main hose that feeds the heater and seems to go everywhere else had split and was pouring water over the exhaust!. Got the car back and will replace the hose next weekend.

D. On the way back from the NEC on Wednesday the BMW 530D lost it's power steering completely and we had to get towed home. Broke down at 17:45, home by 19:00. Replacement vehicle with me by 12:00 the following day. New parts installed on the Friday and BMW picked up on Saturday. It really is good owning a BMW with a warranty they look after their customers!

NOTE. I refused to go anywhere on Friday 13th just to be on the safe side!

So that's it I do not want to talk about cars any more apart from trying to wash at least one of them this week if the rain holds off.

Regards

Chris

martinholmesuk · Post by **martinholmesuk** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:41 am

You had a real shit week with cars. I'm just happy that your 480T is now haPPY AGAIN

ok, i'M OFF to turn the boost down.

volvofox · Post by **volvofox** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:59 am

This is what you people say :"Murphy's law ?" Some times it looks all mishaps come together. But it seems you have stayed cool.
I hope this guy you sold your 480 to still wants it...

I guess, the turbo car did't wanted to leave you, and started getting chronically sick

Hope for you this car story will round up ok for you.

bbf · Post by **bbf** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:58 pm

hey c6rew, why does your car have 2 throtle cables?

dbsvolvos · Post by **dbsvolvos** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:12 pm

hi chris ,

its interesting that the volvo garage did not pick up on the MAF , even when they did the diagnostic check . A stuck wastegate would not provide overfuelling - perhaps you should take that up with them when the bill comes . As i said before , that would only be due to any one of the sensors that affect fuelling ie MAF , temp sensor, throttle position sensor and air inlet temp - give em a rollocking , theyre supposed to know what they are doing .

C6REW · Post by **C6REW** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:33 pm

Hi BBF,

I do not know the answer obviously one comes from the pedal and the other goes? who knows where.

Hi Dave,

The car was originally taken to the garage by the new owner and the receipt I have shown is to him, hence I have removed reference to his name and address.

When I went back to the garage I pointed out that we had wasted a lot of time becuase of their so called diagnostics. Of course this model does not have the diagnostic capability of the newer ones and they admitted that as a new garage they did not have the background knowledge of this older car. Not entirely satisfactory but it is important to point out that they where very helpful in looking at the car again and admitted without question that the wastegate was now OK. Not a perfect record for them I have to admit.

But the good news is that they are trying to loan me the 480 manual for a weekend so I can scan it. I will keep you informed. They are OK with me doing this so I can only assume there is no question over illegality in doing this.

Regards

Chris

chris1roll · Post by **chris1roll** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:52 pm

The other one is the kickdown cable for the auto 'box.