Running On
Moderators: jifflemon, coyote1980, Rachel
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Running On
Believe it or not both launch cars are suffering from the same problem here. When hot, the engine runs on after you switch it off. Keith's car did this over ten years ago when I owned and still does it. Mine has done it before and after the engine rebuild.
All I can think of if a leaky injector. However, mine have been out, tested and cleaned.
I've read a little on-line and it suggests that the wrong temperature spark plugs can cause the chamber to be so hot that fuel ignites on its own. There has been some talk of spark plug manufacturers getting our engines confused.
I have bought some Champion RN9YC to replace the NGK ZGR5B (I think) that I have installed but won't be able to fit those for a few weeks while I'm away.
And other ideas to consider until I get the spark plugs?
All I can think of if a leaky injector. However, mine have been out, tested and cleaned.
I've read a little on-line and it suggests that the wrong temperature spark plugs can cause the chamber to be so hot that fuel ignites on its own. There has been some talk of spark plug manufacturers getting our engines confused.
I have bought some Champion RN9YC to replace the NGK ZGR5B (I think) that I have installed but won't be able to fit those for a few weeks while I'm away.
And other ideas to consider until I get the spark plugs?
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
Re: Running On
James
whilst teaching grannies to suck eggs. . . . . .
you need three things for combustion, air, fuel & spark
OLD carb fed cars would 'run-on' cos the idle was set by a fixed butterfly opening and this let air in, obviously as the air went in it sucked in fuel.
if the plugs were 'redders' then it would 'diesel' for a short time (a few seconds) or if really 'shagged' it would pull up oil from the sump and this becomes REALLY interesting to shut down on an old large diesel
to prevent this (on old carb fed) there would be a 'fuel cut-off' valve fitted to starve it of fuel, so it only had two out of three legs.
now in your case the fuel SHOULD be shut off with injectors so swapping plugs will make no real odds??
so it sounds as if there is a wee dribble of fuel passing/sitting in the inlet manifold?
there will always be a small opening in the idle passage, either butterfly not fully closed. or through the idle valves 'stationary stop position'
only a thought
whilst teaching grannies to suck eggs. . . . . .
you need three things for combustion, air, fuel & spark
OLD carb fed cars would 'run-on' cos the idle was set by a fixed butterfly opening and this let air in, obviously as the air went in it sucked in fuel.
if the plugs were 'redders' then it would 'diesel' for a short time (a few seconds) or if really 'shagged' it would pull up oil from the sump and this becomes REALLY interesting to shut down on an old large diesel
to prevent this (on old carb fed) there would be a 'fuel cut-off' valve fitted to starve it of fuel, so it only had two out of three legs.
now in your case the fuel SHOULD be shut off with injectors so swapping plugs will make no real odds??
so it sounds as if there is a wee dribble of fuel passing/sitting in the inlet manifold?
there will always be a small opening in the idle passage, either butterfly not fully closed. or through the idle valves 'stationary stop position'
only a thought
Alan
480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1
480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Running On
Hi Alan, all input gratefully received!
I agree that the car 'should' completely shut off the fuel supply when the ignition is off but somehow it is getting all three things (fuel, ignition, oxygen).
When starting, if the crank sensor detects the engine turning, it switches the fuel pump on. On shut down, I don't know if it should do this when the key is out but some how the engine runs on. I am wondering if the combustion chamber is so crazy hot from the wrong plugs that it ignites the remaining fuel enough for one more revolution, which the crank sensor sees and then keeps feeding fuel in. Alternatively, it could maybe using what is in the line.
My first thought was that the fuel pressure regulator was leaking fuel in. I have a brand new on installed and this didn't help. The only thing that I've found odd on this early engine is that it doesn't have a fuel pulsation damper. I don't know whether adding one would help or not or whether or not keith's car has one. I should ask him really.
It isn't too bad to access the injectors one more time but I don't fancy it if I don't have to. Maybe I have been unlucky and they are indeed leaking in to the combustion chamber.
I have become practised in the art of stalling when switching it off and then running to the engine bay. It doesn't smell of fuel but that's not the greatest test for a leak.
Other than this the car goes like stink and I have no complaints with its engine.
I agree that the car 'should' completely shut off the fuel supply when the ignition is off but somehow it is getting all three things (fuel, ignition, oxygen).
When starting, if the crank sensor detects the engine turning, it switches the fuel pump on. On shut down, I don't know if it should do this when the key is out but some how the engine runs on. I am wondering if the combustion chamber is so crazy hot from the wrong plugs that it ignites the remaining fuel enough for one more revolution, which the crank sensor sees and then keeps feeding fuel in. Alternatively, it could maybe using what is in the line.
My first thought was that the fuel pressure regulator was leaking fuel in. I have a brand new on installed and this didn't help. The only thing that I've found odd on this early engine is that it doesn't have a fuel pulsation damper. I don't know whether adding one would help or not or whether or not keith's car has one. I should ask him really.
It isn't too bad to access the injectors one more time but I don't fancy it if I don't have to. Maybe I have been unlucky and they are indeed leaking in to the combustion chamber.
I have become practised in the art of stalling when switching it off and then running to the engine bay. It doesn't smell of fuel but that's not the greatest test for a leak.
Other than this the car goes like stink and I have no complaints with its engine.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Running On
On a side note, I had the turbo seals fail on my old Citroen XM 2.1SED diesel and it ran on and was basically about to destroy itself with diesel runaway. Thankfully I sort of thought this might be going to happen to the old girl as it had been behaving funny for a while. While fiddling about in the engine bay it did it and I managed to run from engine bay to driver's seat and dump the clutch. I have never moved so fast in my life, ever!
A second or two later I assume it would have just eaten the clutch and ran away to its death... I consider myself very lucky to have caught it in time. I have no idea what RPM it got to in a few seconds but it didn't seem to have any lasting damage. It got a new turbo and pipes and then seemed to behave very well.
A second or two later I assume it would have just eaten the clutch and ran away to its death... I consider myself very lucky to have caught it in time. I have no idea what RPM it got to in a few seconds but it didn't seem to have any lasting damage. It got a new turbo and pipes and then seemed to behave very well.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
Re: Running On
oh yes forgot about that way of feeding a diesel with fuel!!!jamescarruthers wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:34 pmOn a side note, I had the turbo seals fail on my old Citroen XM 2.1SED diesel and......... It got a new turbo and pipes and then seemed to behave very well.
bet you that was a 'brown trousers moment' ?
Alan
480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1
480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1
- Jay-Kay-Em
- 480 Rookie
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:42 pm
- Location: Huntingdon
- Contact:
Re: Running On
I was always taught carbon glowing cherry red, wrong temp plugs or a petrol engine 'dieseling' on its oil (poor oil control rings etc).
But, if you say its a rebuilt engine, that eliminates two of those!
I've had a few carb cars run-on, but never an EFI. When injectors dribble they tend to do just that - dribble - and not atomise.
Its not something sticking on like the ignition barrel or a relay somewhere? I had a strange fault on the TVR where the headlamps would always stay on for 10 seconds after you'd turn them off... like some sort of courtesy delay. It got worse and worse, for longer and longer, until one day, they wouldn't switch off at all. It was a furred up pair of contacts in a relay sticking. I took the plastic body off, cleaned the internal switch contacts, just fine. Just thinking if any part of the ignition is relay controlled, it might be hanging for a few seconds...
Just thinking outside the box as you seem to have all the bases covered.
But, if you say its a rebuilt engine, that eliminates two of those!
I've had a few carb cars run-on, but never an EFI. When injectors dribble they tend to do just that - dribble - and not atomise.
Its not something sticking on like the ignition barrel or a relay somewhere? I had a strange fault on the TVR where the headlamps would always stay on for 10 seconds after you'd turn them off... like some sort of courtesy delay. It got worse and worse, for longer and longer, until one day, they wouldn't switch off at all. It was a furred up pair of contacts in a relay sticking. I took the plastic body off, cleaned the internal switch contacts, just fine. Just thinking if any part of the ignition is relay controlled, it might be hanging for a few seconds...
Just thinking outside the box as you seem to have all the bases covered.
Jay-Kay-Em
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Click here for My 480 Turbo Diary
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Click here for My 480 Turbo Diary
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Re: Running On
do petrol injectors really 'inject' I thought they just dribbled the fuel into the inlet tract (OK a sort of spray, but not a proper diesel spray)
i wondered about pulling off the wire from the ignition pack rather than turning the key off, that should stop engine pretty quick, if it runs on then it must be the plugs?
ditto the fuel pump supply, I know that loss of power to the pump on ours is instant cut-off.. . ..
i wondered about pulling off the wire from the ignition pack rather than turning the key off, that should stop engine pretty quick, if it runs on then it must be the plugs?
ditto the fuel pump supply, I know that loss of power to the pump on ours is instant cut-off.. . ..
Alan
480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1
480 ES 2litre 'Celebration' ? , C30 1.8ES, SS1
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Running On
That's a good call on pulling the king lead and fuel pump power to eliminate any spark from the plugs and any fuel from the pump (line pressure will get through I guess if the injectors are leaking).Alan 480 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:56 pmdo petrol injectors really 'inject' I thought they just dribbled the fuel into the inlet tract (OK a sort of spray, but not a proper diesel spray)
i wondered about pulling off the wire from the ignition pack rather than turning the key off, that should stop engine pretty quick, if it runs on then it must be the plugs?
ditto the fuel pump supply, I know that loss of power to the pump on ours is instant cut-off.. . ..
The injectors spray, properly, individually and directly into each cylinder. I think what you are talking about is single point or mono point fuel injection.
I will do the two pulls separately when I am next with the car. Cheers Alan.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
-
- Can tell where the 480 was built
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:33 pm
- Location: Derbyshire
Re: Running On
That is not actually true. Our cars use Multi-Point Injection not Direct Injection.jamescarruthers wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:28 pmThe injectors spray, properly, individually and directly into each cylinder.
This is something I have been meaning to look into properly but have not gotten round to ever since finding out that the injectors fire into the inlet manifold not the cylinder and fire in PAIRS!!! not individually.
Here is brief explanation of the different types I have just found
https://www.cars.com/articles/what-are- ... 690418419/
Note the explanation in Sequential Fuel Injection about Multi-Point.
Current:
480 ES Auto 1989
480 Celebration 187
480 ES Auto 1991
CLK430 Conv 2001
Hyundai i10 2015
480 ES Auto 1989
480 Celebration 187
480 ES Auto 1991
CLK430 Conv 2001
Hyundai i10 2015
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Running On
Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't paid much attention to where the fuel was going, I just saw it going four separate places and assumed to each cylinder. It certainly isn't going in to the manifold early like a carb. or monopoint but looks rather in to each cylinder's separate inlet manifoldeye of ra wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:27 pmThat is not actually true. Our cars use Multi-Point Injection not Direct Injection.jamescarruthers wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:28 pmThe injectors spray, properly, individually and directly into each cylinder.
This is something I have been meaning to look into properly but have not gotten round to ever since finding out that the injectors fire into the inlet manifold not the cylinder and fire in PAIRS!!! not individually.
Here is brief explanation of the different types I have just found
https://www.cars.com/articles/what-are- ... 690418419/
Note the explanation in Sequential Fuel Injection about Multi-Point.
I think the early cars with Fenix 1 B18E and later ones fire in different ways. I don't have my books to check but is it true that the B18E fires in pairs and everything else fires together or something like that?
I'm determined to not turn up at the May meet having to stall the car at each stop sounding like an old banger!
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
Re: Running On
Just a quick question James, how Long does it run on for? Seconds? Hours?
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Running On
It varies. Sometimes it will just do one revolution, other times four or five, but I normally just dump the clutch at this point. I think I let it carry on once or twice and it seemed like it was never going to stop!
It is very much temperature dependant and it will not do it unless the engine is at working temperature. It takes a while to start afterwards if I let it chug away, implying it has used the fuel from the line but the pump hasn't provided it.
It is very much temperature dependant and it will not do it unless the engine is at working temperature. It takes a while to start afterwards if I let it chug away, implying it has used the fuel from the line but the pump hasn't provided it.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
-
- Can tell where the 480 was built
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:33 pm
- Location: Derbyshire
Re: Running On
On Multi-Point the injector fires into the inlet manifold just before the valve, as you say not as far back as Carb or Single-Point but not straight into the cylinder like Direct.
So I checked my books and was even more surprised with what I found.
18E fires in 2 pairs.
18F, 18EP, 18FP, 18FT and 20F appear to fire all 4 at the same time.
More investigation required.
Very good point.jamescarruthers wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:04 pmI think the early cars with Fenix 1 B18E and later ones fire in different ways.
So I checked my books and was even more surprised with what I found.
18E fires in 2 pairs.
18F, 18EP, 18FP, 18FT and 20F appear to fire all 4 at the same time.
More investigation required.
Current:
480 ES Auto 1989
480 Celebration 187
480 ES Auto 1991
CLK430 Conv 2001
Hyundai i10 2015
480 ES Auto 1989
480 Celebration 187
480 ES Auto 1991
CLK430 Conv 2001
Hyundai i10 2015
- jamescarruthers
- 480 Is my middle name
- Posts: 2515
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:19 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Running On
This is because the B18E rocks!
Last edited by jamescarruthers on Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
1987 Volvo 480 ES, 507274, 217 - Red (Ness)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
2006 Citroen C6 Exclusive 3.0 petrol/LPG
2008 Mini Cooper convertible (Mau)
Previous 480's:
J123 CFU -- ES
J449 MNL -- ES auto
D864 CPV -- ES
L691 JFC -- Turbo
F70 MNR -- ES
H858 FGV -- Turbo auto
E981 KHM -- ES (509849)
Re: Running On
Very intriguing! The "dieseling" needs fuel. Injection being multi point or "semi" multi point shouldn't matter, it is activated in some way. Now when the ignition is switched off it is only effective as far as the spark is concerned, because the ignition coil is effectively powered off. But the ECU isn't, if it were only for controlling the auxiliary waterpump in some cases. During "dieseling" it gets all the signals as from a normally running engine. Why would't it activate the injectors? There is still some pressure in the fuel line.
Well, they may be activated, but to no avail. The injectors are pulled to ground by the ECU so they need to be connected to power to open. Power is supplied by the fuelpump relais of which the activation is interrupted at ignition off. This leaves only one possibility: The relais is defective and doesn't open. This means also the fuel pump is running.
In later years, from 1991, the situation differs. Of course.
In order to prevent this phenomenon, caused by glowing carbon residues in the cumbustion chambers, use colder plugs like NGK BPR8ES or -7ES and make a long fast drive. The residues may be blown away, through the exhaust that is.
Well, they may be activated, but to no avail. The injectors are pulled to ground by the ECU so they need to be connected to power to open. Power is supplied by the fuelpump relais of which the activation is interrupted at ignition off. This leaves only one possibility: The relais is defective and doesn't open. This means also the fuel pump is running.
In later years, from 1991, the situation differs. Of course.
In order to prevent this phenomenon, caused by glowing carbon residues in the cumbustion chambers, use colder plugs like NGK BPR8ES or -7ES and make a long fast drive. The residues may be blown away, through the exhaust that is.
Too old to bother
480 Turbo midst '91
480 Turbo midst '91
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- Can tell where the 480 was built
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:33 pm
- Location: Derbyshire
Re: Running On
Was thinking along the same lines as Robou, how the Multi-Point/Sequential/Batch/Port Injection system actually works is not really relevant to your problem (I’m still curious though).
So unless the injectors are leaking Robou is correct they must be getting power to fire and on the Fenix 1 this could be from either of the relays under the dash sticking as they are connected in tandem (changes on Fenix 3.2 and later) or don’t know if its mechanically possible but the key switch maybe another possibility, if your Heated Seats are still working during run-on the key switch is still supplying power.
So unless the injectors are leaking Robou is correct they must be getting power to fire and on the Fenix 1 this could be from either of the relays under the dash sticking as they are connected in tandem (changes on Fenix 3.2 and later) or don’t know if its mechanically possible but the key switch maybe another possibility, if your Heated Seats are still working during run-on the key switch is still supplying power.
Current:
480 ES Auto 1989
480 Celebration 187
480 ES Auto 1991
CLK430 Conv 2001
Hyundai i10 2015
480 ES Auto 1989
480 Celebration 187
480 ES Auto 1991
CLK430 Conv 2001
Hyundai i10 2015