Tuning ECUs

[tobi480turbo]

Hi there,

is it possible that a ECU with a red label iss Dual Layered ?
I got a 480 Turbo ´91 an took a look at the ECU today, and if I understood right it seems to be a Dual Layered one.
I got an older one as spare with a yellow label and it seems to be the same .... the only difference I mesioned iss that the FUEL ECU ( right side of the car) with the red label has an Eeprom inside ( located left beside the INtel Cpu ) which the one with the yellow label hasn´t ?!
the Ignition/Boost ECU´s ( middle of the car ) red and yellow label seem to bee Equal.
I´m wondering why the red unit has this Eeprom more than the yellow one, and what is this Eeprom doing ?

I read something about physical differences in the car between single an dual layer ECU´s does anybody know what differences there are ? other cable wiring ?

thx

tobi

[bbf]

extract from vadis:

http://naveza.s4u.org/volvofiles/summar ... ypes_o.htm

different software are presented in different colour ecus, but the wireing is almost the same.

[rpruen]

Hi there,

is it possible that a ECU with a red label iss Dual Layered ?
I got a 480 Turbo ´91 an took a look at the ECU today, and if I understood right it seems to be a Dual Layered one.
I got an older one as spare with a yellow label and it seems to be the same .... the only difference I mesioned iss that the FUEL ECU ( right side of the car) with the red label has an Eeprom inside ( located left beside the INtel Cpu ) which the one with the yellow label hasn´t ?!
the Ignition/Boost ECU´s ( middle of the car ) red and yellow label seem to bee Equal.
I´m wondering why the red unit has this Eeprom more than the yellow one, and what is this Eeprom doing ?

I read something about physical differences in the car between single an dual layer ECU´s does anybody know what differences there are ? other cable wiring ?

thx

tobi

All the fuel ECUs are chippable they have an eprom (it's a write once eprom on later cars, it has no window to allow it to be reprogrammed). I have some bins for a chip made by an american company that no longer exists.

The maps are almost flat anyway, since the MAF does a very good job of measuring the air going to the engine. I guess that's why there aren't many chips for the fuel ecu.

I don't know about red Ignition ECUs they may be dual layer, but the yellow one I have seen isn't. There may be some variation within the types of ECU as well, say some red ones are dual layer, and some are not. The yellow ecu I have seen is from an early Turbo Automatic. To further complicate things not all the ECUs have the same software version, though all the orange ones have the same basic maps.

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

Hi

I just put the two yellow ECU´s in my 480 instead of the original red ones, but when I tried to start nothing happens ... the engine doesn´t start at all ?
So what iss the difference that it´s not possible to change the red ECU´s against the yellow/blue labled ECU´s ?!?

anyone has an idea ?

thx

[rpruen]

Hi

I just put the two yellow ECU´s in my 480 instead of the original red ones, but when I tried to start nothing happens ... the engine doesn´t start at all ?
So what iss the difference that it´s not possible to change the red ECU´s against the yellow/blue labled ECU´s ?!?

anyone has an idea ?

thx

The flywheel has a different pattern of teeth that the sensor detects. The ECU needs to see the right flywheel to be able to detect the crank position. The fuel ECU will be ok, as it doesn't care about the flywheel.

If you swap the ECU and flywheel together than it will work.

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

All the fuel ECUs are chippable they have an eprom (it's a write once eprom on later cars, it has no window to allow it to be reprogrammed). I have some bins for a chip made by an american company that no longer exists.

what kind of bin´s are those you have or what is the difference between that ones and the original bin ?

The maps are almost flat anyway, since the MAF does a very good job of measuring the air going to the engine. I guess that's why there aren't many chips for the fuel ecu.

What would happen if I remove the Eeprom in the fuel ECU ... will the car still run ?

A good friend of mine also has a 480 turbo with the blue one inside, so that I can take a look at that one probably I can take some pic´s of the 3 different ECU´s.

hmm so if I imagine right the flywheel is between the gearbox and the engine ... so if I want to change it I have to remove the whole engine+gearbox from the car that I can remove the gearbox from the engine to get access to the flywheel ? am I right ? cause that´s a lot of work

thx

P.S.: I just tried to change only the fuel ECU and the engine starts but doesn´t run that well ... you have to stay a little at the gas that the engine doesn´t die, so what would happen if change the eeprom from the yellow one to the red one ? could/would this work ?

[rpruen]

what kind of bin´s are those you have or what is the difference between that ones and the original bin ?

It's just a dump of the contents of the chip. The differance is very small, the ecu offsets the calculated fuel pulse by the value in the map. The change in the modified eprom isn't worth the cost. The map is also offset by the oxygen sensor when at less than 50% throttle and below 3500 rpm so most of the time you drive the car you get what the oxygen sensor wants the mixture to be.

What would happen if I remove the Eeprom in the fuel ECU ... will the car still run ?

I don't know.... It's a silly sort of thing to try anyway.

A good friend of mine also has a 480 turbo with the blue one inside, so that I can take a look at that one probably I can take some pic´s of the 3 different ECU´s.

I have plenty of info on the blue ones, since that's what my car has. I also have modified orange ones, so know about those too.

hmm so if I imagine right the flywheel is between the gearbox and the engine ... so if I want to change it I have to remove the whole engine+gearbox from the car that I can remove the gearbox from the engine to get access to the flywheel ? am I right ? cause that´s a lot of work

Yes that's it. You can remove the gearbox with the engine in the car, and gain access to the flywheel. It's still a lot of work.

P.S.: I just tried to change only the fuel ECU and the engine starts but doesn´t run that well ... you have to stay a little at the gas that the engine doesn´t die, so what would happen if change the eeprom from the yellow one to the red one ? could/would this work ?

Changing the eprom should work. Then it would be identical to the one you took out, as the program, and maps are both on the eprom.

There are also two types of MAF, one has an A appended to the number. They are interchangable, but I think the CO adjustment needs changing if you swap them. Due to tolarances in the sensors and ECU parts it's likely that swapping ECUs would mean you need to set the CO and idle anyway.

Richard[/quote]

[Swe480T]

In January 1991 Volvo changed the turbo(still T2 but different house), new software in EZ210K and LH2,2.
Torque raised from 175Nm to 195Nm, the M59 with new clutch(215mm,) and flywheel from CHnr 567600 was born to handle the higer torque.

Still want to know IF and WHEN the M58(I think early 91) was used.
And why they had "Gear lever in position 'R' engine torque adjusted" +12v in on pin15 on LH2,2. Look in 91wiring.pdf page 35.

[tobi480turbo]

Hi there back again,

What would happen if I remove the Eeprom in the fuel ECU ... will the car still run ?

I don't know.... It's a silly sort of thing to try anyway.

I removed the Eeprom from the Fuel ECU an the car didn´t start ... only some relais were clicking

A good friend of mine also has a 480 turbo with the blue one inside, so that I can take a look at that one probably I can take some pic´s of the 3 different ECU´s.

I have plenty of info on the blue ones, since that's what my car has. I also have modified orange ones, so know about those too.

finally I got some pictures of the three different Ecu´s I got here

blue/purple and brown ones were in a ´88 480



yellow and yellow ones were in a ´89 480



red ones were in a ´91 480 ( which is actually the one I´m driving )



Which if these Ecu´s are chipable ? or are they all suitable for chiptuning i.e. Rica chip ?

P.S.: I just tried to change only the fuel ECU and the engine starts but doesn´t run that well ... you have to stay a little at the gas that the engine doesn´t die, so what would happen if change the eeprom from the yellow one to the red one ? could/would this work ?

Changing the eprom should work. Then it would be identical to the one you took out, as the program, and maps are both on the eprom.

There are also two types of MAF, one has an A appended to the number. They are interchangable, but I think the CO adjustment needs changing if you swap them. Due to tolarances in the sensors and ECU parts it's likely that swapping ECUs would mean you need to set the CO and idle anyway.

Richard

I changed the Eeprom from the yellow Ignition Ecu to the red one and put it togheter with the yellow fuel Ecu in my car.
I had to adjust the CO a little bit, course the car wasn´t idling nice.
After some test drivings I had the feeling that the car was running better than with the original one´s (red) the only prob I have with the yellow Fuel Ecu iss that the auxiliary water pump doesn´t run with this one cause there was a change at ´91 so that the water pump from now on is controlled by the Fuel Ecu and this doens´t work with the yellow one


Last year I had to change the engine because the original B18FT crashed, so I thought about a bigger one.
Finally I got a B20F from a 440 and turbocharged it with the turbo from the 480 B18FT engine ... was a lot of work until this was done the pistons were reworked new bearings a stronger clutch Fuel pressure raised to 4 Bar (58 psi) and so on ....

So the mechanical part works fine for now about 11 months I think ... but I´m not very confident about how the car runs.
If I fully put down the gas that the engine has to get to full load it doesn´t run cleanly semms to be cut back by the ECU´s and the acceleration iss is not that well :/
If I step to the gas half way that the enging is at half load it seems to run run better ( the turbo needle is half in the yellow ) also acceleration is better, at ~4500rpm you can step fully to the gas and it runs up to 6000rpm without probs ...
Although I´m not very confident with the power of the engine, I expected al little more ... the car now runs up to 220/230 Km/h but very slow acceleration at the end ( 200Km/h to end ).

What could be the best conclusion to get my baby runing really well
I changed already all electrical parts ( Ignition Tubes Sensors etc.)at the engine but if I got some time next weekend I´m going to check the whole connections, Voltages and clean the connectors.

What kind of air filter would be suitable or best used ?

Is the garret T2 turbocharger probably to small for the 2litre engine that there is not enough boost pressure for the bigger engine ? or Intercooler to small ?

What about chiptuning ? would i.e. a Rica chip work with this B20F(T) engine ? are there any other cars with 2litre engine where probably the maps could be used from ? or is the only/best way in looking for a custom made chip specially for this engine/car what I think would be the most expensive solution

For the future I´m planing to fit a selfmade stainless steel exhaust system to my baby which should give a little more sound to it

I would be happy if anyone has some tips about how to get my car running well

Thx,

best regards Tobi

P.s.: Is there a 16V head which fit´s at the B20F engine block ?

[bbf]

looks like all of them are chipable, coz the ignition ecu is dual layerd. you can see the chip on the left 'daughter' board - thi big ceramic one with the big sticker on it. but those are for turbo management. sounds like your engine is knocking? might be it coz the maps in fuel ecu are for smaller engine. Knocking would retard boost pressure and you loose power.

the ecu will have to be reprogramed if you added turbo to the engine.
look here: http://www.scotsglen.com/saab/ecu/LH22/LH22_main.htm
your ecu (fuel ecu - the one with JETRONIC sticker) is for 1.7T, you could try to use different eproms for the 2.0t like those saab eproms on that site. but at least you will have to adapt the injectors (their flow rate and pressure in fuel line) so the fuel amount will be correct. the eprom on fuel ecu looks like the same on the turbo ecu. just program some new eproms from that site (they are all for 2.0Turbo saab 900 and 9000) - ask your local electronic repairer for programing eproms and try those!

good luck!

[Swe480T]

Looking at SAABs pin layout they use pin15 as an "groundingpoint for coding", while volvo have +12v on pin 15.
Only for M58 gearbox "Gear lever in position 'R' engine torque adjusted" +12v in on pin15 on LH2,2. Look in 91wiring.pdf page 35."

Think im gonna try and cut the wire to pin15......just to see what happens

[480_rocket]

When I first saw that in the 91 wiring diagram I assumed that in reverse, torque is reduced so that the gearbox doesn't get broken.

Sort of a safety thing so people don't slam into reverse, drop the clutch and blow the gearbox up

[chris1roll]

Its for the automatic gearbox!

[Swe480T]

Its for the automatic gearbox!

So M58=Automatic?

[tobi480turbo]

looks like all of them are chipable, coz the ignition ecu is dual layerd. you can see the chip on the left 'daughter' board - thi big ceramic one with the big sticker on it. but those are for turbo management. sounds like your engine is knocking? might be it coz the maps in fuel ecu are for smaller engine. Knocking would retard boost pressure and you loose power.

before I changed the fuel pressure the engine was somtines knocking but with the higher fuel pressure I didn´t recognize knocking anymore.
If the Eeprom in the EZK Ecu only has maps for Turbo an Ignition and the Jetronic Ecu uses own Maps how is it done then with the yellow labeld Jetronic ECU ? because this one I have here has no Eeprom inside as you can see at the picture ... the brown and red one´s have an Eeprom

the ecu will have to be reprogramed if you added turbo to the engine.
look here: http://www.scotsglen.com/saab/ecu/LH22/LH22_main.htm
your ecu (fuel ecu - the one with JETRONIC sticker) is for 1.7T, you could try to use different eproms for the 2.0t like those saab eproms on that site. but at least you will have to adapt the injectors (their flow rate and pressure in fuel line) so the fuel amount will be correct. the eprom on fuel ecu looks like the same on the turbo ecu. just program some new eproms from that site (they are all for 2.0Turbo saab 900 and 9000) - ask your local electronic repairer for programing eproms and try those!

good luck!

I took the whole fuel rail with injectors from the B20F and just raised the Fuel pressure up to 4 Bar (58 Psi) so that there should be enough fuel now.
I got the bin´s from the Saab´s Jetronic and have acces to a galep to write Eeproms but if I´m not wrong the EZK has a 256kb Eeprom inside and the Jetronic only 4Kb .... so I tink I´m going to test what´s about to happen when I "feed" my Jetronic with the Saab maps
are there any differences in wiring between the 480 and Saab ?

thx

[bbf]

because this one I have here has no Eeprom inside as you can see at the picture ... the brown and red one´s have an Eeprom

than the maps are stored in the cpu's memory - hardrer to reprogram (must know wich part of memory to reprogram, if it is ufcorse not locked)

I took the whole fuel rail with injectors from the B20F and just raised the Fuel pressure up to 4 Bar (58 Psi) so that there should be enough fuel now

enough for idle, but does it distribute enough when boosting? originaly it's 3.5bar on 1.7T on idle, rasing pressure can lead the pump to clipping. (get's it to it's max available pressure). have you checked this? can you measure if it's running lean when boosting? this would indicate lack of fuel amount.

leave the EZ maps as they are, you program the LH maps.

the wiring are very similar, check for your self, from the saab's LH page and here : http://naveza.s4u.org/volvofiles/summar ... ypes_o.htm they are both LH 2.2 Jectronic. don't know what the values for coolant sensor on saab is.. remember, you do it on your own risk. i would also do it, with consideration for the differentcies in wiring (i would leave the suspicious pins open).

good luck!

[tobi480turbo]

because this one I have here has no Eeprom inside as you can see at the picture ... the brown and red one´s have an Eeprom

than the maps are stored in the cpu's memory - hardrer to reprogram (must know wich part of memory to reprogram, if it is ufcorse not locked)

So the Intel CPU has a Flash memory where it´s basic programm is stored ? is there an interface to get access to the CPU ?

can you measure if it's running lean when boosting? this would indicate lack of fuel amount.

what would be the easiest way to measure if it´s runing lean ? CO meter or could it be done with a Multimeter ?

the wiring are very similar, check for your self, from the saab's LH page and here : http://naveza.s4u.org/volvofiles/summar ... ypes_o.htm they are both LH 2.2 Jectronic. don't know what the values for coolant sensor on saab is.. remember, you do it on your own risk. i would also do it, with consideration for the differentcies in wiring (i would leave the suspicious pins open).

good luck!

Yeah the wiring looks very similar so I think I should give it a try with a reprogrammed Eeprom in the Jetronic

anyone has an Idea about how much horsepower you can get from such an engine if it´s running perfectly ? are more than 200 HP makeable or realistic ?

thx

[rpruen]

So the Intel CPU has a Flash memory where it´s basic programm is stored ? is there an interface to get access to the CPU ?

The chip has factory mask programmed ROM so you can't program it.

What you can do is disable the internal memory and fit an eeprom.

The later ignition ECU is even more odd, some eeprom, and some mask rom plus two lots of RAM in the same package. Some reprogramming can be done to it. The purple ignition ECU contains an eprom with both the program and the maps, so it can easily be chipped. (it's on the extra board)

Yeah the wiring looks very similar so I think I should give it a try with a reprogrammed Eeprom in the Jetronic

anyone has an Idea about how much horsepower you can get from such an engine if it´s running perfectly ? are more than 200 HP makeable or realistic ?

Yes, but you will run into problems. I think why your engine holds back is that the MAF is unable to measure enough air. If you fit a multi meter to the MAF output pins and it reads 5V when the engine is at full load, but hasn't got to 6k rpm then that's the problem.

It could also be knock. The ECU will first retard the ignition, then lowers the boost. The knock sensor will detect the knock before you hear it most of the time, so you won't normaly be able to tell.

Hope that helps

Richard

[tobi480turbo]

So the Intel CPU has a Flash memory where it´s basic programm is stored ? is there an interface to get access to the CPU ?

The chip has factory mask programmed ROM so you can't program it.

What you can do is disable the internal memory and fit an eeprom.

So if I understand right the red and brown Jetronic ECU´s have disabled the internal memory and use the external Eeprom and the yellow one uses the CPU internal ROM ?

The later ignition ECU is even more odd, some eeprom, and some mask rom plus two lots of RAM in the same package. Some reprogramming can be done to it. The purple ignition ECU contains an eprom with both the program and the maps, so it can easily be chipped. (it's on the extra board)

That means that there is another CPU package use in the purple EZK ECU than at the red and yellow EZK ECU ? if I got that right the red an yellow ones have their ROM/PROGRAMM code stored inside their package ( factory mask programmed ROM) and the purple one has it externally stored at the Eeprom located at the second board ( chip on the left side of the picture with silver sticker on it ) of the ECU that only the purple EZK ECU shown on the pictures before is "fully" chipable an the other two just "partially" ?

btw. is there a way of getting a purple ECU work in a car which has a red one ... without changing the flywheel ?

Yeah the wiring looks very similar so I think I should give it a try with a reprogrammed Eeprom in the Jetronic

anyone has an Idea about how much horsepower you can get from such an engine if it´s running perfectly ? are more than 200 HP makeable or realistic ?

Yes, but you will run into problems. I think why your engine holds back is that the MAF is unable to measure enough air. If you fit a multi meter to the MAF output pins and it reads 5V when the engine is at full load, but hasn't got to 6k rpm then that's the problem.

I´ll watch wich voltage is comming from the outputs of the MAF ... could the MAF easily be replaced with another one able to measure enough air if the original one isn´t capable ?

It could also be knock. The ECU will first retard the ignition, then lowers the boost. The knock sensor will detect the knock before you hear it most of the time, so you won't normaly be able to tell.

I know but if I think at the first time without higher fuel pressure the knocking was clearly hearable especially an warmer days an this "hearable" part for now is fully gone. Think I´m also going to do a little check at the weekend if all the Sensors and wires are ok so far.



So how much HP´s are realistic for an engine like this ? and what steps could be done to get it running right ?
I thought about an exhaust system with low backpressure, probably a bigger turbocharger a bigger air intake system / air filter and fitting a chip to the engine.
The mechanical things are realizeable I think, the biggest prob I have is to find someone who is able to programm a chip for my car. I talked with several mechanichans in tuning shops arround here and no one of them had knowlegde about the 480 or could help me with this problem cause they mostly use ODB tuning oder never had something to do with a car like the 480

Have you ever done something like this @ rpruen
or is there anther solution than fitting a custom chip for the engine ?


Thx so far!

[rpruen]

So if I understand right the red and brown Jetronic ECU´s have disabled the internal memory and use the external Eeprom and the yellow one uses the CPU internal ROM ?

That's it.... Though the early ones don't have the internal ROM at all. It's a case of changing one pin on the chip EA (external enable) to switch from internal to external memory.

That means that there is another CPU package use in the purple EZK ECU than at the red and yellow EZK ECU ? if I got that right the red an yellow ones have their ROM/PROGRAMM code stored inside their package ( factory mask programmed ROM) and the purple one has it externally stored at the Eeprom located at the second board ( chip on the left side of the picture with silver sticker on it ) of the ECU that only the purple EZK ECU shown on the pictures before is "fully" chipable an the other two just "partially" ?

The CPU type is the same, it's just that the purple ones use an external ROM. I think the 'Feature' to do this is present on all the ECUs as a path to update them should there be a recall.

If you aren't using the purple ECU is there any chance of borrowing it for a while? I could do with being able to look at the aditional board, it may be possible to chip any ECU if this can be added to other ECUs. I'd also like to see what is in the onboard ROM on the purple ECU (if anything) to see why it has the external ROM (I'm thinking there is some sort of error, that's why the extra board is there).

btw. is there a way of getting a purple ECU work in a car which has a red one ... without changing the flywheel ?

I don't know.... Yet.... If I had a purple ECU I may be able to tell you. I hope that it's possible to make every ECU chippable.

I´ll watch wich voltage is comming from the outputs of the MAF ... could the MAF easily be replaced with another one able to measure enough air if the original one isn´t capable ?

It should be possible to change the MAF to give it a higher range. So you shouldn't need a new MAF. You also have to fit bigger injectors. If you change the injectors, and the MAF the two changes should mean that no modification to the ECU is required. It may be that you need to change one internal resistor value to allow for the increased opening time of the injectors.

The LH ecus aren't like the later ones, the CPU is too low powered to do everything, so a lot of it is electronic, rater than computerised. If you open one up, you see all the resistors in little holders? Each one of them is used to fine tune a setting. The EZK also has 3 of these.

I know but if I think at the first time without higher fuel pressure the knocking was clearly hearable especially an warmer days an this "hearable" part for now is fully gone. Think I´m also going to do a little check at the weekend if all the Sensors and wires are ok so far.

It could be that the ECU ran out of retard that enabled the knock to be heard. IF you have a AVM with a few megohm input impeadance, then connect it across the knock sensor. Set it to 4V AC and tap the knock sensor, it should give a little twitch (a digital meter won't react quickly enough). If that's ok, driving at low load (part throttle) take the reading, and use that as your basic 'noise setting', then accelerate sharply, if the reading goes up, and then back down that is 'pre-knock' and the ECU backing off the timing.

So how much HP´s are realistic for an engine like this ? and what steps could be done to get it running right ?
I thought about an exhaust system with low backpressure, probably a bigger turbocharger a bigger air intake system / air filter and fitting a chip to the engine.
The mechanical things are realizeable I think, the biggest prob I have is to find someone who is able to programm a chip for my car. I talked with several mechanichans in tuning shops arround here and no one of them had knowlegde about the 480 or could help me with this problem cause they mostly use ODB tuning oder never had something to do with a car like the 480

All of what you say is true, anything to get more air into and out of the engine.... But you also need to provide enough fuel. I don't know what power is resonable... Somewhere in the 300 ish HP range is my guess.

No one knows about tuning the 480, there are a few people that can chip the EZK with a purple lablel, but that's it. I can modify the EZK without a purple label, it's half electronc mod, half chiping.

Recently someone pointed out that someone had gone half way to my mod, and did a sort of 'boost defender' circuit. The trouble with that is that the ignition retard would also be cut off at 12 psi. I can get to 15 psi (with the standard MAP sensor) without knock, because the ECU remains aware of the extra boost. I can go much higher with a 3 bar MAP.

Have you ever done something like this @ rpruen
or is there anther solution than fitting a custom chip for the engine ?

There isn't any custom chip solution that I am aware of.... I looked for any info I could find, and it's just not available. That's why I came up with a solution of my own.

You could always fit an aftermarket ECU and tune it yourself. That's going to be time consuming and expencive. Talk to DBS about megasquirt, he will be able to tell you more about that.

My next project is to try to sort out bigger injectors for the LH, plus a way of extending the range of the MAF. Unfortunatly I have a lot of things to do that are more important, so it won't be all that soon.

Hope that's usefull to you?

Richard