Touring Car Racing in a 480

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:10 am

Hi all, I have decided to embark on a new adventure. I want to race a 480 in the Pre 93 Touring car championship. I have two options to race with and I wanted your opinions on if it is posible?

Option 1: Run a majorly modified 2lt 480. I would need to get 190bhp out of it.

Option 2: This is the one I like more but I don't know if it's achievable, Run a modified Turbo model, but I would need to get a reliable 280bhp out of it to be competitive. I don't think the gearbox is going to take that level of abuse. I also have the added problem of not being able to upgrade the turbo

But I can go mad on modding everything else.

The problem I have running the Turbo model is it puts me in the same class as the BMW M3 which is mostly raced tuned before it's out if the factory, so they're pushing 280+. So currently the top 3 spots this year are all BMWs, I would love to beat them at their own game in a 480.

So what do you think?

There is option 3: that's run a Volvo V40 moded to 300bhp+ Twin turbo easte of doom. A good option but does not have the same appeal as the 480

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Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:56 am

Since it's basically a Renault engine, isn't there a stronger Renault transmission you could fit to it?

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:02 pm

Can't use parts from other cars only cars within the production series, i.e other 480 Turbos, but I might be able to get an exception to any 480 gearbox

I can strengthen by adding material and change gear ratios but that's it.

richj · Post by **richj** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:18 pm

the 480 doesn't seem to have been designed for performance. A sort of half way house between longevity and peak power. I'd imagine a jap performance car like a 200sx would give you better results. Certainly getting 300bhp would not be an issue.

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Don't really want to drive another jap car, wanted something different. I only need to get the turbo up to 270/280bhp to be very competitive cos of the slight weight advantage.

It's all down to class and each class has a bhp I would need to achieve to be competitive it's which class I choose I'm looking at.

Class D:
This would be a 480 2lt, other cars in the class like the Astra GTE are running about 180bhp.

Class C:
This is the 480 Turbo, other cars in this are the Golf VR6 and BMW M3 running 280bhp.

So what I'm interested in finding out is which model people think would be the best option and if they think it's possible to get the require BHP out of them??

Ettore Bugatti · Post by **Ettore Bugatti** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:37 pm

You can rebuild the B20F to Formula Renault specs, which means 175hp. I t would involve headwork, cam, custom chip and a exhaust.

To get 280hp reliable from a Turbo costs a lot of money. You would need 25-30psi to achieve this. So a standalone ECU is needed as well as a bigger turbo. And then the next question is of the stock internals are up to it. The gearbox will be in pieces already by then. These already struggle with 200hp in normal use (so dont even consider shortshifting)

But does a VR6 really deliver 280hp? The E36 M3 is 200-300kg heavier, so to keep the same power/weight ratio you only need 220-230hp (one/two factors easier to achieve). Even less when you consider that a turbo engine has a far wider power band then a N/A engine.

Driver, handling and "laufkultur" of the engine are more important then raw power IMHO

Other then this. It is a very cool idea!

Do you have more info about the classes and championship?

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:21 pm

Ettore Bugatti wrote:You can rebuild the B20F to Formula Renault specs, which means 175hp. I t would involve headwork, cam, custom chip and a exhaust.

Is there a list anywhere of what they did? and available parts. I'm not worried about handwork and can do a lot of it myself.

Ettore Bugatti wrote:Driver, handling and "laufkultur" of the engine are more important then raw power IMHO

I total agree, I don't know if I'm a good enough driver, but I will definitely give it my best.

Ettore Bugatti wrote:Do you have more info about the classes and championship?

It's the CTCRC Pre 93 Championship. Reg here http://www.classictouringcars.com/pages ... sVer01.pdf

Any help greatly appreciated.

Ettore Bugatti · Post by **Ettore Bugatti** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:47 pm

Best is to contact (by phone) Renault Sport in France, as far as I know they still stock parts for the F3R FRS engine.
Otherwise any engine builder involved in formula renault can help your in the direction.

I see that the competition for the 480 Turbo would be the E30 M3 and the VW Corrado/ Vento VR6. (Also one of the fastest off all classes).
It is hard to beat an extra 600cc and 8valve with a turbo. Even a Ford Sierra Cosworth are behind these.
Altough the 480 should goes faster round the bend then a Vento.

There are on this forum also some pictures of the group A racer which was used in Belgium.

dubstep · Post by **dubstep** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:44 am

I only need to get the turbo up to 270/280bhp to be very competitive cos of the slight weight advantage.

Only! -isnt the turbo 120bhp as standard? seems like quite an increase!

If you achieve 200bhp+ i think you should give the E30 M3 a run for its money -they handle well but arnt overly fast as standard. As for the VR6 Corrado, good luck! I had one for a few months and they are FAST!

DeLorean · Post by **DeLorean** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:58 am

Surely a 280 horsepower fwd 480 would be all over the road on full boost?

aibast · Post by **aibast** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:26 pm

Well the 480 doen't have back-wheel-lifting-up-in-the-corner problems like VolksWaginas have. I'm not a professional race driver, but I liked every second on track with my 480. Handles way better than 850T5R

So go for the turbo car and have some fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Cf4yRXen8

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:31 pm

Put a second engine in the back so double the power and have 4-wd!

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:58 pm

Van wrote:Put a second engine in the back so double the power and have 4-wd!

I don't think I will get away with that

ted clutch · Post by **ted clutch** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:30 pm

are you allowed to lighten the car up. in any class this would make a big dent in speed and cornering. take the bumpers awat and get the grinder out.slot some plexi glass in there. i like the renault build option. wouldnt put a great deal more load on the gearbox.

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:35 pm

I can lighten the car up to 10% so down to 898kg.

pol · Post by **pol** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:18 am

I think it would have too much power up front to be much use. Also I cant see the handling being better than a modified RWD bmw.

It'd be fun though and I bet it'd do some good burnouts!

Maybe the 2L class would be a fairer race? (Slightly boring though

)

Good luck with it.

pol

Ettore Bugatti · Post by **Ettore Bugatti** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:59 pm

Well the 480 should have a benefit in CoG, but the BMW E30 has almost 25 years of racing pedigree. So dont expect to drive the BMW's into the woods with a slammed down 480

Still I think that turbo with 220-240hp is enough with 900kg to be a front runner. (I assume it is coorect that the E30 M3 should weight 1100kg?)

ted clutch · Post by **ted clutch** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:13 pm

point taken. but an e30 has 2.3-2.5 litres. it really pisses me off when ever people are comparing bmw they always cost much more or have a bigger engine. why is unfair comparison always made. simple recipe - big engine small car. an austin allegro would be rapid with a huge engine.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:58 pm

ted I never understood why Volvo dit not put a reasonable powered engine eg a small six or so in the 480.

jamesalx · Post by **jamesalx** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:25 pm

I only make the comparison as thats the car in class I'm looking at. I would be heartbroken if I ended up racing a BMW or Astra, there just not me.

Well after much thought and research I think I'm going to race a 480 2lt. I think that the worries about the gearbox on a turbo running at 250+bhp coupled with the large bhp increase that is needed, has ruled out using a Turbo.

So I have hedged my bests on using a 2lt, it's at 109bhp so getting it up to 185bhp is going to be an easier ride then getting a Turbo from 120bhp to 250+bhp

So if anyone would like to help by donating a 480 2lt to the course then it will be greatfully received, or if you have one for sale please PM me